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Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.
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Cam
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#21 Post by Cam » February 20th, 2014, 5:27 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Nick wrote:This might be of interest, especially the point about the market economy relying on co-operation.

If you want further reading, have a look at Coase's work. Nobel prizewinner and all that.... :wink:
Hi Nick, thanks for the link. Interesting reading. I see no-one has mentioned exploitation? In fact one chap stated:
I still can’t see what’s wrong with greed. What’s wrong with wanting more and better for yourself and those you care about?
Well, nothing as long as no-one gets exploited or disadvantaged, which we all know happens all the time and is at the very core of the capitalist system.

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Dave B
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#22 Post by Dave B » February 20th, 2014, 5:46 pm

I see nothing wrong with wanting a better life for oneself and ones loved ones - but not to the detriment of another. I would define "greed" as a desire for an excessive share of the cake. Especially to the point where it becomes so large that it exceeds the person's requirements by hundreds of thousands of times. And still they want more.

I felt sick when I heard of a footballer getting 300K a week. That is sick even if he can only earn that for a short period in his life. It's a kind of inflation that top bankers etc know well and take advantage of. To the cost of the rest of us.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Alan H
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#23 Post by Alan H » February 20th, 2014, 6:21 pm

Cam wrote:
Nick wrote:This might be of interest, especially the point about the market economy relying on co-operation.

If you want further reading, have a look at Coase's work. Nobel prizewinner and all that.... :wink:
Hi Nick, thanks for the link. Interesting reading. I see no-one has mentioned exploitation? In fact one chap stated:
I still can’t see what’s wrong with greed. What’s wrong with wanting more and better for yourself and those you care about?
Well, nothing as long as no-one gets exploited or disadvantaged, which we all know happens all the time and is at the very core of the capitalist system.
+1
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#24 Post by Dave B » February 20th, 2014, 7:04 pm

+2
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Dave B
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#25 Post by Dave B » February 20th, 2014, 9:02 pm

Cam wrote:Dave B,
I feel your pain. I have not had a pay rise in almost 5 years. But the office/sales staff have!
Yes, and they never ealise that without the Design & Development dept and production engineers making manufacture possible they would not have anything to sell!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Alan H
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#26 Post by Alan H » February 20th, 2014, 9:10 pm

Dave B wrote:
Cam wrote:Dave B,
I feel your pain. I have not had a pay rise in almost 5 years. But the office/sales staff have!
Yes, and they never ealise that without the Design & Development dept and production engineers making manufacture possible they would not have anything to sell!
Ah. The ones who actually generate wealth. Unlike others who just move it around from place to place, generally in the direction of their own (offshore) bank accounts...
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Dave B
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#27 Post by Dave B » February 20th, 2014, 9:18 pm

Alan H wrote:
Dave B wrote:
Cam wrote:Dave B,
I feel your pain. I have not had a pay rise in almost 5 years. But the office/sales staff have!
Yes, and they never ealise that without the Design & Development dept and production engineers making manufacture possible they would not have anything to sell!
Ah. The ones who actually generate wealth. Unlike others who just move it around from place to place, generally in the direction of their own (offshore) bank accounts...
'Sright!
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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pantodragon
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#28 Post by pantodragon » February 21st, 2014, 2:57 pm

Nick wrote:This might be of interest, especially the point about the market economy relying on co-operation.

If you want further reading, have a look at Coase's work. Nobel prizewinner and all that.... :wink:
This is SUCH a misuse of the idea of cooperation. This is just like calling it cooperation when governments focus their population's attention on an outside threat in order to get them to behave better at home. Under these circumstances, (and one might also instance the halcyon days of "cooperation" that people who experienced WWII in Britain) people APPEAR to be cooperating but that is not it. They are FOCUSSED on defeating an enemy. THAT is what it is about. If your best weapon is an alliance with other enemies of your enemy then that is the weapon you will use. But, like I said, there is no cooperation here, there is merely a temporary suppression of hostilities between 2 enemies while they take care of the third. A suppression of hostilities in NOT cooperation. Cooperation is something much more complicated and much less passive. There is an expression "my enemy's enemy is my friend". Actually of course that is not quite true, as one can see the extent of the friendship in that it only lasts till the mutual enemy is defeated.

So to say that businesses which form an alliance are cooperating is nonsense.

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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#29 Post by pantodragon » February 21st, 2014, 3:22 pm

It sounds so good, doesn't it: to make the world a better place for everyone. Trouble is, it is NOT easy to know what will make the world a better place. The situation really is far, far, FAR too complicated, even at the level of the individual. To think that you might know what is good for other people is to get WAY, WAY, WAY above yourself. Better advice might be: mind your own business. Or you might put it this way, a bit of good advice from the bible: pluck the log out of your own eye that you might see to pluck the speck out of your neighbour's. And actually, there is a very positive side to "minding your own business": how can you make life better for everyone when you do not know how to make life good for yourself? So, work on your own life, get that really sorted out, including health as well as happiness, and then others can learn from your example. Then far better that people are free to learn from the example of others than that they are subject to the interference, albeit well meant, of others.

But there is something else that everyone misses but which is of the most fundamental importance: the bad thing about greed and competitiveness and other forms of bad behavior, is not what it does to other people, but WHAT IT DOES TO YOURSELF. The plain truth is that the person who suffers most from bad behavior is the person who behaves badly. This idea (I'm going to bring in religion again, but try not to give the usual knee-jerk reaction and just switch off; whatever you may think about beliefs in gods, nevertheless, there are many wisdoms contained in the religious books of the world) is expressed in the bible as the idea that if you break God's commandments, if you behave badly, then you pay by being sent to hell. That is the way it is: if you behave badly you send yourself to hell, i.e. you condemn yourself to unhappiness and illness.

If people could just get their heads round the damage that they are doing to themselves with their bad behavior then maybe we would get closer to a cure for the evils of the world.

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Cam
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#30 Post by Cam » February 21st, 2014, 4:51 pm

pantodragon wrote:The plain truth is that the person who suffers most from bad behavior is the person who behaves badly.
I agree with that IF the person has empathy to those that they have behaved badly to. If the person behaving badly has no empathy then the person who suffers the most is the one who has been badly treated. Most of these fat cats have no empathy otherwise they would not be doing what they are doing. Imagine the fat banker draped in gold sitting in his heated pool, cigar in one hand and brandy in the other, grinning at the thought that his bonus has come from the 'idiots' that he's managed to screw because they cannot get out of the debt they have through not being able to either mentally or physically, and thus been exploited.
This idea (I'm going to bring in religion again, but try not to give the usual knee-jerk reaction and just switch off; whatever you may think about beliefs in gods, nevertheless, there are many wisdoms contained in the religious books of the world) is expressed in the bible as the idea that if you break God's commandments, if you behave badly, then you pay by being sent to hell. That is the way it is: if you behave badly you send yourself to hell, i.e. you condemn yourself to unhappiness and illness.
Definitely not. That is saying: Behave well towards others or you will be punished. Much better to want to behave well towards others because you genuinely feel for them and have empathy towards them.
If people could just get their heads round the damage that they are doing to themselves with their bad behavior then maybe we would get closer to a cure for the evils of the world.
Trouble is, from their perspective they just don't care. How many times have we heard "it's business" or "it's a dog eat dog world out there" or "all's fair in love and war" They really don't care. It is entrenched in them and bolstered by the acceptance and glorification of "greed is good" as a certain Mrs Thatcher once said...

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Dave B
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#31 Post by Dave B » February 21st, 2014, 5:49 pm

pantodragon wrote:
The plain truth is that the person who suffers most from bad behavior is the person who behaves badly.
That is the basis of the threat of eternity in hell and is baseless unless the "person" above has a sudden rush of conscience and regrets his/her actions to the point of "emotional pain".
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pantodragon
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#32 Post by pantodragon » February 24th, 2014, 3:35 pm

No, no, you are misunderstanding.

Let me lay it on the line for you: It has nothing to do with feeling for other people. If you are greedy, or in general, competitive, then you do yourself a damage, you sabotage your own development, you bring down autism and other mental illnesses upon yourself (which convert into or induce physical illnesses). This is what I mean when I talk of the hell you create for yourself --- that hell is the hell of depression, of psychotic illnesses and ultimately of severe and increasing autism.

I am in a position to know. Through my own bad behaviour I created a hell for myself. I was competitive and exhibited all the bad behaviours that go with competitiveness and I was angry and I was autistic. It has taken me 17 years to crawl out of the hell-hole that I had dug for myself --- and I have to say I did know the depths of my own misery till I smelt the fresh air when I recovered sufficiently. And every day I am discovering just how much better life can be, how much richer, freer, lighter, easier --- I am discovering it's a can-do world, a world of BIG ambitions/dreams, a world of continual mental development and of constantly opening new doors. It is a world which bucks the medical predictions for how the mind degenerates with age. My mind is growing and developing and every now and again I realise that I have developed some new ability that allows me to do new things and that the old things which I had to work at previously have become easy, trivial even.

YOU are all competitive. YOU are all living in the same self-created hell that I once lived in. Yet you sit there smugly thinking that it is everybody else that has problems and that the problems of this world are created by other people. They are not. They are created by everyone who is competitive, which is everyone in the world. You cannot blame the state of the world on some distant powers. It is EVERYONE. It is COMPETITIVENESS. It is POWER.

If you actually really, genuinely, want to improve the world, then you have to start with yourself. And the place to start is this: admit that you are competitive and get your head and feelings round wanting to change. The one problem is that the wanting to change HAS to be genuine. You can’t just say “I want to change”. You have to get your feelings behind the desire. That’s it. That will start the process.

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Dave B
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#33 Post by Dave B » February 24th, 2014, 5:01 pm

If you are greedy, or in general, competitive, then you do yourself a damage, you sabotage your own development, you bring down autism and other mental illnesses upon yourself (which convert into or induce physical illnesses).
Got [roof of that, Pants?

That one claim, unsubstantiated, is the stopper there - not worth reading further if it rests on that premise.

autism
ˈɔːtɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: autism
1.
a mental condition, present from early childhood, characterized by great difficulty in communicating and forming relationships with other people and in using language and abstract concepts.

Oh, sorry, forgot that you are immune to facts.

Since most small children go through a selfish period (like from birth onwards for some!) one might assume almost all kids are liable to a diagnosis of that condition according to your ideas. Haven't noticed that this is the case.
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Fia
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#34 Post by Fia » February 24th, 2014, 5:47 pm

Panto, I'm really glad for you that you found a way of moving through your hell and flourishing.

However, what is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone else.

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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#35 Post by pantodragon » February 26th, 2014, 3:43 pm

Dave B wrote: Got [roof of that, Pants?

That one claim, unsubstantiated, is the stopper there - not worth reading further if it rests on that premise.

autism
ˈɔːtɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: autism
1.
a mental condition, present from early childhood, characterized by great difficulty in communicating and forming relationships with other people and in using language and abstract concepts.

Oh, sorry, forgot that you are immune to facts.

Since most small children go through a selfish period (like from birth onwards for some!) one might assume almost all kids are liable to a diagnosis of that condition according to your ideas. Haven't noticed that this is the case.
You want proof from science? I'm damned sure if I looked for it I could find it. But I'm just as sure that if I wanted to find proof to the contrary, I would also find it. If there's one group that has proved me right, there will be another competing with that group which will have come up with contrary evidence. And what is right today, what sciebntists agree upin today, will be the opposite of what they agree upon tomorrow. One of the most recent gems I heard (Harry Collins, Professor of Social Sciences at Cardiff University) is that scientists should decide the value of their theories democratically (entirely predictable in view of the way philosophy has gone). Yes, they should put their theories to the puiblic vote in order to decide which should be the winner, which should become the accepted orthodoxy. I mean, this is going from the sublime to the ridiculous! This smacks of Kafka or of Monty Python. How, how, in this day and age, can anyone still cling to scinece as their lifeboat in the stormy waters of life?

No, Dave, sooner or later you're going to have to grasp the sad thruth that there is no one you can rely upon but yourself, that you are actually going to have to get off your arse and do the hard work yourself. You are actually going to have to bestir those little brain cells and see if they can still remember how to think.

I wonder, if I was offering an effortless pill instead of 17 years hard slog, would you jump at the chance, would you be considerably more receptive instead of demanding proof and evidence at every turn.

As to your remark about children, ignoramus: I am surprised you do not know, surprised you did not find it in volume 5634, page 47298, para. 53, of the Journal of Psychological Gems that more than 99% of the population of the UK suffers from some degree of autism. It really is very dangerous of you to be so careless; goodness knows what wisdoms you are missing out on, wisdoms that would do your health inestimable benefit, by being so careless in your keeping up to date with the latest and best scientific findings. (FYI: joke. Irony. But nevertheless the statistic quoted is genuine.)

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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#36 Post by pantodragon » February 26th, 2014, 3:51 pm

Fia wrote:Panto, I'm really glad for you that you found a way of moving through your hell and flourishing.

However, what is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone else.
Oh don't be so ridiculously patronising! You don't know what you're fecking talking about, Fia!!!

As to "what is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone else": there is such a thing as a human being and as human beings we are all alike. Your personality, which you THINK makes you different from other people, is part of your disease..........just like everybody else!!! And if there is so much individuality around, how is it that I find you all SO predictable?

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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#37 Post by Dave B » February 26th, 2014, 8:25 pm

No, Dave, sooner or later you're going to have to grasp the sad thruth that there is no one you can rely upon but yourself,
Not sure what "thruth" is but I understand what you say.

I do rely on myself for a great deal - I also rely on friends for those things I cannot do for myself and they return the favour. I rely on science to tell me things - I do not rely on things that involve science though - the science is OK its the computers, cars, electricity supply and those million other unreliable things that get up my nose. Trouble is things usually break for reasons that science can explain . . .

Decided on rewrite of the rest after a little consideration.

Pants, no-one relies on science except as a tool for investigating processes and obtaining answers - which are not always correct so a mite of scepticism is good. If you bake a cake you are using processes that can be explained by science - but you do not need to know that to bake the cake. There are things, totally unnatural things like computers, that relied on science - centuries or even millennia worth of it, to be invented. Why are you not doing the work of distributing your stuff via natural means instead of relying on a scientifically based system like this to do so?

I have said it before - give up all this unnatural stuff that so annoys you, Pants, and all these people that threaten you as well - go live off Mother Nature in the woods. You do not need to know how photosynthesis works - as analysed and explained by science - just that plants need sunlight to thrive. You don't need to know exactly how your gastric system works - the incredibly complex chemistry that goes on - just that it is comfortably engaged in the process of digestion for the benefit of your mind and body.

And, as for doing one's own work - I often do, but I will not do your job in backing up your claims with facts - that is your job.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#38 Post by pantodragon » February 28th, 2014, 2:46 pm

Dave B wrote:no-one relies on science except as a tool for investigating processes and obtaining answers.
I'm trying to pick my jaw up off the ground. The statements that people on this forum can blithely come out with, statements that are in utter defiance of reality (but do give them grounds for contradiction......uh-huh) leave me breathless at times. What can one say when people pluck these things out of the air and especially when one is absolutely sure that they actually believe what they are saying? I often enough have decried reason on this forum for reasons I need not go into here, but in this case, it is not so much that I decry reason but that I despair of it! There is no reasoning with those who have this fatal system error embedded in their centre of reason in the brain.

give up all this unnatural stuff that so annoys you, Pants, and all these people that threaten you as well - go live off Mother Nature in the woods
You really just don't get what I am about. I have tried to explain time and again so I'm not going to even try yet again. I will just say that this shows a complete failure to understand what I am about.

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Dave B
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Re: Should the usurers be driven out of the temple?

#39 Post by Dave B » February 28th, 2014, 3:41 pm

I will just say that this shows a complete failure to understand what I am about.
Correct in one go, Pants. You are beyond understanding by a mere rational being like me! :D

I will say it again: Science is a tool, no different from any other tool in that it will only do (within its abilities) what people ask it to do. A hammer is a tool, it is also a lethal weapon in the right hands. It is not science that has fault BUT WHAT HUMANS DO WITH IT!

Used correctly science gives us medicines, better food, better housing, computers, mechanical transport and all the other "non-natural" things we make or grow (the first farmers of The Fertile Crescent, 40,000 years ago, applied simple selective science to improve their wheat crops.)
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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