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War and Humanism

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.
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Compassionist
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Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

War and Humanism

#1 Post by Compassionist » July 27th, 2010, 12:58 am

Afghanistan War: coalition forces have killed hundreds of civilians in unreported incidents

Where do Humanists stand when it comes to war? What about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? I am a pacifist but I realise that in a world like this non-violence does not always succeed even though that is my preference. Any and all comments are welcome. Thank you.

Mike
Posts: 124
Joined: December 13th, 2009, 12:58 pm

Re: War and Humanism

#2 Post by Mike » July 27th, 2010, 1:10 am

I served in the UK military for twenty-two years so it will probably surprise you when I say that, broadly speaking, I am anti-war. However, there are (IMHO) occasions when war is the lesser of the two evils. Sometimes, however unpallatable it may seem, you have to fight in order to avoid something far worse. (One obvious case would be the Nazi regime of WW2)

I also feel that govermnments, newspapers and ordinary people are far too quick to pass judgement over soldiers, sailors and airmen. Some of the things that get reported, get talked about in Parliament or discussed over a pint in the pub are not as straightforward as we may think. It is very easy for me to say "Oh well Corporal Bloggs should not have done that" when I have no idea what Corporal Bloggs was going through during (and in the hours leading up to) the event.

As for the Iraq and Afghan conflicts. I happen to believe that the Iraq invasion was illegal. I believe that Bush and Blair lied to us and I believe that we have left a right bloody mess behind. As for Afghanistan, I am still unsure as to what will be considered a good outcome or why we went in in the first place.

Compassionist
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Joined: July 14th, 2007, 8:38 am

Re: War and Humanism

#3 Post by Compassionist » July 27th, 2010, 12:36 pm

Mike wrote:I served in the UK military for twenty-two years so it will probably surprise you when I say that, broadly speaking, I am anti-war. However, there are (IMHO) occasions when war is the lesser of the two evils. Sometimes, however unpallatable it may seem, you have to fight in order to avoid something far worse. (One obvious case would be the Nazi regime of WW2)

I also feel that govermnments, newspapers and ordinary people are far too quick to pass judgement over soldiers, sailors and airmen. Some of the things that get reported, get talked about in Parliament or discussed over a pint in the pub are not as straightforward as we may think. It is very easy for me to say "Oh well Corporal Bloggs should not have done that" when I have no idea what Corporal Bloggs was going through during (and in the hours leading up to) the event.

As for the Iraq and Afghan conflicts. I happen to believe that the Iraq invasion was illegal. I believe that Bush and Blair lied to us and I believe that we have left a right bloody mess behind. As for Afghanistan, I am still unsure as to what will be considered a good outcome or why we went in in the first place.
Thank you Sir for your honest comments - I really value that. I agree that war is sometimes necessary e.g. to oppose the Nazi expansion which caused the Second World War. I agree with: "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering

Nirvanam
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Re: War and Humanism

#4 Post by Nirvanam » July 27th, 2010, 6:24 pm

Compassionist wrote:Afghanistan War: coalition forces have killed hundreds of civilians in unreported incidents

Where do Humanists stand when it comes to war? What about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? I am a pacifist but I realise that in a world like this non-violence does not always succeed even though that is my preference. Any and all comments are welcome. Thank you.
To put Mike's words (and include my opinion) in a different way, there is no right or wrong. Nothing is intrinsically right or wrong. Everything is relative and its relativity depends upon space, time, perspective, and context.

Buddhism rather Gautama Buddha's (this modern obsessive need for classifying every such thing as a religion creates more misunderstanding than help understanding them) teachings prohibit people from taking up violence. But the main reason for that is because the self is immortal and really no one is being killed or destroyed. However, I feel that it is a stupid thing to do. Immaterial of whether the self is mortal or immortal, it has chosen to live the life of a human being, so one must defend his or her own chosen life otherwise why does one have to live anyway?

When it comes to war, we have to take the rough with the smooth. Sometimes some means maybe necessary to reach an end. What is important is to be very sure what the 'end' must be and continuously monitor and assess if the 'means' need changing, if the 'means' are being overdone to such an extent that the 'end' itself is threatened.

The war on Afghanistan, and for that matter any (or almost all) war that was fought by the US/NATO after WW II has never been for "liberating" those countries...let's be clear about that. They were for control and power. They sell it to their local public as some kinda great thing they are doing for the other country and ensure the locals rarely get to know the truth. But the human gene called curiosity ensures enough people get more curious to know what is happening at ground level, and these guys help us daily people with uncensored info. For ex: two days back the wikileaks website published about 19000 pages of evidence of ISI (Pak's CIA) involvement in terrorist attacks in India including 26-11, and that the "aid" money of the US was being diverted by these bastards to fund their brothers-in-arms, the Taliban.

Gottard
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Joined: October 3rd, 2008, 3:11 pm

Re: War and Humanism

#5 Post by Gottard » July 27th, 2010, 8:49 pm

As a Humanist I must say that I find it immoral the fighting of a war in name of religion, immoral the pretended devotion of an army to a saint and immoral the assignment of a military chaplain to an army (Christian chaplains are even given military rank).
Concerning wars in general, imo war is madness by another name; although the mad sometimes might need a straitjacket, i.e. sanctions and war as a last extreme resort.
Re.:Afghanistan
The fact that Bin Laden cannot be found is just a myth and I would not be surprised if he would be named "the new Jesus" one day! :puzzled:
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

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Val
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Re: War and Humanism

#6 Post by Val » July 27th, 2010, 9:06 pm

remember the definition of a politician?
A man who will lay down your life for his country

Gottard
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Re: War and Humanism

#7 Post by Gottard » July 27th, 2010, 9:25 pm

:pointlaugh: Indeed!
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

Nirvanam
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Re: War and Humanism

#8 Post by Nirvanam » July 27th, 2010, 9:33 pm

peneasy wrote:The fact that Bin Laden cannot be found is just a myth and I would not be surprised if he would be named "the new Jesus" one day! :puzzled:
I think your reference to Osama is that of being born again when you mention him in the same breath as Jesus. A key difference between Jesus and Bin Laden is that Jesus was a peaceful person. His teachings were of love, forgiveness, and tolerance, because he was influenced by the ways of Buddha. While the Bible may have some stories about Jesus it definitely does not contain teachings or practices that Jesus stood for, only. In fact Jesus' stuff in the Bible may be less than half the book.

See, I don't think all religions are at fault themselves except of course Islam because it is probably the only religion that encourages active intolerant violence against people who don't believe in the Quran. Religion is used as a cover-up reason to garner support but the real reasons at least for the current conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan is oil and opium. You think the Americans (i.e. the ppl who run America) care about how ppl live in Afghanistan? They care a damn...they are interested in the opium fields be damned whether Afghans have food to eat or water to drink.

I have a question to the guys from the West...suppose your governments told you about the fact that they have to exploit extremely poor people from poorer countries in order to allow their liberal markets make the products and services that you use. And suppose the governments now tell you that we can stop all this exploitation provided,
a. You, the citizens, work for lesser salaries (that way you won't lose your jobs and as an effect we can also reduce the prices of these products and services over a period of time)
b. You, the citizens, undergo some cutbacks in some of the free services that are provided to you (which in some countries are luxuries)
c. You, the citizens, voluntarily give up some luxuries

How would you react to such a proposal? Ifs, buts, if-then-elses will always be there, just assume at face value that the governments will reduce the prices and stick to their part of the promise.

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Alan C.
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Re: War and Humanism

#9 Post by Alan C. » July 27th, 2010, 10:59 pm

Nice to see you "out of the box" as it were Nervanam, you usually only post in threads you started yourself.
A key difference between Jesus and Bin Laden is that Jesus was a peaceful person.
A key difference between Bin Laden and Jesus is.........Bin Laden is (was) a real person.
See, I don't think all religions are at fault themselves except of course Islam
because it is probably the only religion that encourages active intolerant violence against people who don't believe in theQuran. nonsense
Are you serious?
I don't read much of what you write here but I had you down as more inteligent than this.

The crusades? the inquisition? Catholics killing protestants and vise verse? They're all at it, even different sects of the same cult.
I have a question to the guys from the West...
Just the "guys" What about the women who I regard as equals?
suppose your governments told you about the fact that they have to exploit extremely poor people from poorer countries in order to allow their liberal markets make the products and services that you use.
You think we as educated peole don't know this?
a. You, the citizens, work for lesser salaries (that way you won't lose your jobs and as an effect we can also reduce the prices of these products and services over a period of time)
And that would help third world countries how exactly?
b. You, the citizens, undergo some cutbacks in some of the free services that are provided to you (which in some countries are luxuries)
What are these free services of which you speak? I certainly know of none.
c. You, the citizens, voluntarily give up some luxuries
If we all gave up our "luxuries" The likes of India, China, Japan, et al would go out of business, is that what you want?
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Nirvanam
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Re: War and Humanism

#10 Post by Nirvanam » July 28th, 2010, 3:18 am

Alan C. wrote:Nice to see you "out of the box" as it were Nervanam, you usually only post in threads you started yourself.
I dunno about you, Alan, but I rarely post in threads just for the heck of it. Unless I have an opinion to share in a subject that interests me and am interested to know others' I don't get into the discussion.
Alan C. wrote:
A key difference between Jesus and Bin Laden is that Jesus was a peaceful person.
A key difference between Bin Laden and Jesus is.........Bin Laden is (was) a real person.
And you have been living since 4 BC to know he did not exist?
Alan C. wrote:
See, I don't think all religions are at fault themselves except of course Islam
because it is probably the only religion that encourages active intolerant violence against people who don't believe in theQuran. nonsense
Are you serious?
I don't read much of what you write here but I had you down as more inteligent than this.

The crusades? the inquisition? Catholics killing protestants and vise verse? They're all at it, even different sects of the same cult.
My bad, I should've specified that I meant their main "holy" texts don't call for active intolerant violence. And I am sure you can tell the difference between verses that demonstrate hatred and verses that call for active violence.
Alan C. wrote:
I have a question to the guys from the West...
Just the "guys" What about the women who I regard as equals?
You continue to demonstrate how much hatred is filled in your heart towards me. What more you continue to demonstrate how much your life seems to be impacted by what I post. When you get all worked up the moment a post from me appears on TH, and when you waste enough time with a magnifying glass, and then when you are done deciding if you could respond or can't, and then when you respond (or not), and then take your by now screwed up mood into other activities that you do, whom does it affect? How many times do you want me to keep showing you how miserable you are becoming, Alan? Learn something, man. Let go of such unnecessary negative attitude towards an individual you only know over the internet. It only affects you. Just think about the time you waste on me, the unnecessary mood changes you induce in yourself because of your hatred towards me. I really haven't come across someone who hates me so much, in my life. What are you...some kinda evil twin of me? What's your date of birth, 12th August? You are becoming cheap, Alan. People who respect you will start to get disappointed in you because of this hate-filled, spiteful, vengeful attitude towards me. It has been going on forever now! And for what? Coz I opine differently on some things?
Alan C. wrote:
suppose your governments told you about the fact that they have to exploit extremely poor people from poorer countries in order to allow their liberal markets make the products and services that you use.
You think we as educated peole don't know this?
Question based on a wrong assumption
Alan C. wrote:
a. You, the citizens, work for lesser salaries (that way you won't lose your jobs and as an effect we can also reduce the prices of these products and services over a period of time)
And that would help third world countries how exactly?
Answer the question, if you are interested in letting your opinion known. And please do not refer to poor countries as "third world". Call them poor countries, that is reasonable but this "third world" thing, just in case you were not aware, is not considered a particularly good way of referring by people from the poorer countries. Oh and by the way the relevance of the term itself has been lost for close to 2 decades now.
Alan C. wrote:
b. You, the citizens, undergo some cutbacks in some of the free services that are provided to you (which in some countries are luxuries)
What are these free services of which you speak? I certainly know of none.
OK...free schools, healthcare, clean drinking water, welfare, etc
Alan C. wrote:
c. You, the citizens, voluntarily give up some luxuries
If we all gave up our "luxuries" The likes of India, China, Japan, et al would go out of business, is that what you want?
Answer the question, if you are interested in letting your opinion known.

Mike
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Re: War and Humanism

#11 Post by Mike » July 28th, 2010, 9:43 am

In the UK we pay for our "free schools, welfare state & clean water" actually, we pay rather a lot for these things.

Nirvanam
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Re: War and Humanism

#12 Post by Nirvanam » July 28th, 2010, 9:51 am

Here we go... http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 538274.ece

Just what would happen to the world if the many millions of Americans did not pay their taxes.

How did other democracies in Europe manage to get out of this nonsense years ago? Surely the everyday citizen in France and the in the USA wants the war to end. But while the French government takes its citizens seriously, the American govt doesn't seem to care. I haven't come across even one American who does not think that the US should get out of Afghan and Iraq, in the last 2-3 years. Are there any who still feel US should continue to stay there until "stability is achieved"?

37 billion friggin dollars!!! I had tears in my eyes when I read that. I was following this new bill story and was so positive that this time around the US Parliament would oppose or at least make drastic cuts what with all the right noises being made by so many senators, and they end up with a 308-114 vote?

Nirvanam
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Re: War and Humanism

#13 Post by Nirvanam » July 28th, 2010, 9:58 am

Mike wrote:In the UK we pay for our "free schools, welfare state & clean water" actually, we pay rather a lot for these things.
Meaning pay your taxes? Or pay fees at the school, buy clean water from the government?

Obviously people who earn will buy stuff. But what about people who do not have jobs, who are from the lowest income groups? Maybe my understanding is incorrect but at least in the US I thought unemployed people get paid for a period of time, welfare is provided by the state i.e. monthly checks are sent, bills for healthcare/insurance are picked up by the state for low/no income people, foster homes are found for kids, etc.

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Dave B
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Re: War and Humanism

#14 Post by Dave B » July 28th, 2010, 5:23 pm

The fact that some get these services without being able to pay taxes does not mean that they are free.

Getting back to the title of the thread I have avoided it because I feel very ambivalent, perhaps even a little guilty, regarding my feelings towards war.

As an ex-serviceman I understand some of the psychology of war - I also understand that it rarely really solves problems without creating even larger ones. But, at the same time, if we allowed the likes of Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Pohl Pot and others to thrive then the world would probably be a far worse place than it is now.

I am a patriot (for my country, its government is a very different matter!) and a humanist. How to avoid conflict between the two seemingly opposing attitudes of wanting world peace yet being willing to take up arms in defence of one's country?

This, for me, is a dilemma that will probably only be solved should I be faced with it unavoidably.

I presently want to see our troops out of the Islamic world as soon as possible, I don't feel that the western mind will ever triumph there short of using totally overwhelming force, at great cost to the ordinary people, then sitting on the lid for the next thousand years. "Bomb them into the Stone Age" is one expression that has been used for this.

But, will Al Q. etc. be willing to disband now if we give them what they originally wanted - a withdrawal of western influence from Islamic countries? Is there now a burden of revenge in their minds that will fuel and steer their actions for a long time to come?

Whatever happens it will not be resolved fully before the next event stirs it up again in my view of the matter! One might say that global warming and the possible reduction in population in those countries already under stress will eventually provide something of a solution, albeit a terrible one. And don't forget that the UK actually has water resources, per person, lower than many Mediterranean countries - we may well be under resource stress greater than countries far to the south of us.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

Marian
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Re: War and Humanism

#15 Post by Marian » July 28th, 2010, 6:39 pm

Cross-posted with Dave but none the less: In an attempt to bring this discussion back on track (yes, I would be speaking about you two in particular, Nirvanam and AlanC) Look I really like both of you guys but you are de-railing Compassionist's thread about war. Can you either start a new thread and just barely maintain the illusion of civility or get back on track? Oh wait a minute, maybe this is all a set-up so we can see just exactly how wars are started in the first place....


I don't like war, especially since the ones who start them never have to fight them. Inevitably, it's the more vulnerable who pay the biggest price in conflict, usually children. And from both sides of the fighting. The children who get recruited into the military are typically lower class who go in as a means to get an education, at least in the US. Don't know about other countries but I imagine those kids haven't much choice either.

This song by Michael Franti sums it up for me:

Listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPw8MQXj ... re=related

Light Up Your Lighter:
Fire, fire, fire, light up ya lighter, fire fire fire
Armageddon is a deadly day, Armageddon is a deadly way
They comin for you everyday, While Senators on holiday

The Army recruiters in the parking lot, Hustling kids they're jugglin pot
Listen young man, Listen to my plan , Gonna make you money, gonna make you a man

Bomb Bomb
Here’s what you get, An M-16 and a Kevlar vest
You might come home with one less leg, But this thing will surely keep a bullet out of your chest

So Come on Come on, Sign up, Come on
This one’s nothing like Vietnam
Except for the bullets, Except for the bombs,
Except for the youth that’s gone

Chorus
So we keep it on, til ya coming home, Higher and Higher
Fire, fire, fire, light up ya lighter, fire fire fire, so we keep it on
Til ya commin home, higher and higher
Fire, fire, fire, light up ya lighter, fire fire fire

Tell me President tell if you will,
How many people does a smart bomb kill?
How many of em do you think we got,
The General says we never miss a shot
And we never ever ever keep a body count,
we killin so efficiently we can’t keep count.

In the Afghan hills the rebels still fightin,
Opium fields keep providin
The best heroin that money can buy
and nobody knows where Osama bin hidin
The press conferences keep on lyin like we don’t know

Some say engine engine number nine,
Machine guns on a New York transit line
The war for oil is a war for the beast,
the war on terror is a war on peace

Tellin you they’re gonna protect you,
Tellin you that they support the troops
Don’t let them fool you with their milk and honey,
No they only want your money

One step forward and two steps back,
Why do veterans get no respect
PTSD and a broken back,
Take a look at where your moneys gone seen
Take a look at what they spend it on
No excuses, No illusions

Light up ya lighter
Transformative fire...

Nirvanam
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Joined: April 15th, 2009, 11:29 pm

Re: War and Humanism

#16 Post by Nirvanam » July 28th, 2010, 7:46 pm

Dave B wrote:The fact that some get these services without being able to pay taxes does not mean that they are free.
If you are not paying for something then is it not free? I think you are talking about technicalities here. Let me give you some examples to make it more relevant:
In India there is an Act that there would be Free Education upto primary school for everybody. Nothing much changed till the late 90's and early 2000's. then the Govt introduced 1 free meal for lunch at schools then poor kids started going to school because one meal was guaranteed. Just click this google image search link to get an idea of what a government school means in India and what kind of facilities we are talking about
http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en ... =&gs_rfai=

I am not sure if you understand the kind of poverty we are talking about here. A government school in the US or UK is as good as the best private schools in cities like Bangalore and Mumbai. When we say government schools in India, imagine kids wearing torn clothes, sitting on the ground in front of a banyan tree where the teacher has a blackboard and teaches to some government schools where children wear neat uniforms and sit in a class room which is usually meant to accommodate about 30 students but there are 80-90 students (some having desks and benches, and some sitting on the floor).

Recently the government of India started a new project called Rural Employment Scheme to ensure everyone has work. You know what is the minimum wage? Rs.100/- per day (a day typically starts at 8 AM and ends at 8 PM)...that is about 1.25 pounds per day.

Welfare: government in US/UK guarantees people will get something as a ceiling to sleep under...those apartment complexes in the ghettos and all. In India, there is NO such scheme. The villagers who come to the city in search of jobs end up living you know where? In those big cement pipes by the railway tracks...this will give you a better picture - http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en ... =&gs_rfai=

Welfare: government takes care of citizens for at least a month when unemployed? In India there is no such thing. The Rs.100/- job guarantee was brought about in 2007 I think. And so it will be safe to say more than 50% of the rural areas in the country would not have even had the Scheme office in their villages.

Now, given this context, do ppl not get free services in US/UK? Or is it technically not free because an insurance company pays for the insurance of the citizen, so although the citizen himself is not paying for healthcare from his pocket, someone (who happens to be a multimillion dollar insurance company) is paying. Is that what you meant by 'not a free service'?
Dave B wrote:But, at the same time, if we allowed the likes of Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Pohl Pot and others to thrive then the world would probably be a far worse place than it is now.
I know what you are saying and I agree with it. However, in Saddam's case, this time around it did not fit in the category you describe. In fact after WWII the only other war that was truly necessary was the Pak-Bangladesh war in 1971. You can tell that this was a necessary war by one main thing, it had an end date...it lasted not even a month. The issue was resolved. Whereas every other war that NATO has indulged in since 1945 did not have an issue that necessitated war-like action except Iraq war in 1991 (again the war lasted only 42 days there...issue resolved, Iraq thrown out of Kuwait, war ends)
Dave B wrote:I am a patriot (for my country, its government is a very different matter!) and a humanist. How to avoid conflict between the two seemingly opposing attitudes of wanting world peace yet being willing to take up arms in defence of one's country?
I know and even I'd do it, but we are lucky our countries have not needed defending in the last 60 yrs or so.

This, for me, is a dilemma that will probably only be solved should I be faced with it unavoidably.
Dave B wrote:But, will Al Q. etc. be willing to disband now if we give them what they originally wanted - a withdrawal of western influence from Islamic countries? Is there now a burden of revenge in their minds that will fuel and steer their actions for a long time to come?
There, Dave. It is high time the citizen of the world opens the blindfold he has been wearing and start accepting that this war was never about al qaeda. It was never about saddam or osama. It was always about oil, and opium. Please at least now you and I must accept it. Yes we will feel guilty about it all, we will curse ourselves, we will get disillusioned, we will hate ourselves, but sometimes the only way to come up is to touch the abyss first. The first step to making a better world is to acknowledge and accept that these wars were never about liberating different peoples.

You should watch the movie Wag the Dog...its a black comedy but there is some truth in it.
Dave B wrote:Whatever happens it will not be resolved fully before the next event stirs it up again in my view of the matter! One might say that global warming and the possible reduction in population in those countries already under stress will eventually provide something of a solution, albeit a terrible one.
I think humanity is at a sort of cusp. We are reaching the tipping point and one way or the other there will be a new human being in the coming few years, I feel.
Dave B wrote:And don't forget that the UK actually has water resources, per person, lower than many Mediterranean countries - we may well be under resource stress greater than countries far to the south of us.
Just imagine if UK has water problem then what would be the problem in Africa.

Well, we humans have been like a virus attack if we consider mother Earth as an organism. Like all bodies will react to poisoning/toxins either by puking or falling ill, our mother will also throw up and cleanse herself. It is better she throws up so we can start a fresh...we may now transform into some sorta white blood cells for our mother, helping her immunity and defending her from falling sick as long as she wants us to, insha allah!

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Gurdur
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Re: War and Humanism

#17 Post by Gurdur » July 28th, 2010, 8:21 pm

Compassionist wrote: .... Where do Humanists stand when it comes to war?
Depends on each humanist and on each war and even more.

I am not a pacifist at all, but there are certain wars I would not fight in, just as there are those I would.
What about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Very very difficult to say. I tend to be of the opinion that occupying Afghanistan was a mistake; but it begs the question of what else could have been done. I am of the opinion that invading Iraq in the way it was done was illegal, and highly stupid.

Mike wrote:I served in the UK military for twenty-two years so it will probably surprise you when I say that, broadly speaking, I am anti-war. However, there are (IMHO) occasions when war is the lesser of the two evils.
Bingo, and no surprise, those that have fought in wars are often against militarism.
Sometimes, however unpallatable it may seem, you have to fight in order to avoid something far worse. (One obvious case would be the Nazi regime of WW2)
Bingo. If you don't fight, you lose.
I also feel that govermnments, newspapers and ordinary people are far too quick to pass judgement over soldiers, sailors and airmen. Some of the things that get reported, get talked about in Parliament or discussed over a pint in the pub are not as straightforward as we may think. It is very easy for me to say "Oh well Corporal Bloggs should not have done that" when I have no idea what Corporal Bloggs was going through during (and in the hours leading up to) the event.

As for the Iraq and Afghan conflicts. I happen to believe that the Iraq invasion was illegal. I believe that Bush and Blair lied to us and I believe that we have left a right bloody mess behind. As for Afghanistan, I am still unsure as to what will be considered a good outcome or why we went in in the first place.
All very good points indeedy.

Nirvanam wrote:... opium. ...
Nope.
... We are reaching the tipping point and one way or the other there will be a new human being in the coming few years, I feel.
I am already here.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
.....
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of indignant desert birds.
.....
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
......
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


I am here. I am come.
Well, we humans have been like a virus attack if we consider mother Earth as an organism. Like all bodies will react to poisoning/toxins either by puking or falling ill, our mother will also throw up and cleanse herself. It is better she throws up so we can start afresh...
As barf? We start afresh as barf product, and then?

Anyway, no worries, I am here.

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Dave B
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Re: War and Humanism

#18 Post by Dave B » July 28th, 2010, 8:45 pm

Nirvanam:
There, Dave. It is high time the citizen of the world opens the blindfold he has been wearing and start accepting that this war was never about al qaeda. It was never about saddam or osama. It was always about oil, and opium.
I know this, but my point was that, even if the western countries pull every soldier and politicians out of Iraq and Afghanistan tomorrow there is now HISTORY to be sorted out.

The memory of Muslims seems to be very long and very strong, even very emotional. My point was that Al Q. and the other radical Muslim groups may not stop their actions simply because we have retreated. They are as likely to consider this a sign of weakness and increase their actions as much as possible, but on our territory or against western embassies and commercial interests in other countries - such as those in Africa that are most liable to Islamic influence. Even if the global caliphate never comes about much of Africa is in danger of becoming part of greater Islam. Thus the western world will not protect itself by withdrawal, it will merely shift the theatre of action and become something even more difficult to fight.

bin Laden's original fight was to rid the Muslim Holy Land, Saudi Arabia, of all western "contamination". But it has grown well beyond that. Al Q. etc. may not be the true raison d'etre for the present war, but they may well become the reason that violence continues, and spreads, after western withdrawal.

We can, perhaps, be thankful that Islam is so divided against itself, it reduces the overall strength of the radicals.

Consider the problems that a spread of radical Islam might cause, every person of middle eastern appearance might become suspect, whether they are recent immigrants or third or more generation in western countries. And many people, who have not met numbers of both groups, cannot easily distinguish between people from the middle east and South Asia.

The nationalist parties might have a stronger argument and Islamophobia, even xenophobia, might increase if there are more bombings. That problem may even increase in your own country.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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getreal
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Re: War and Humanism

#19 Post by getreal » July 28th, 2010, 9:06 pm

We can, perhaps, be thankful that Islam is so divided against itself, it reduces the overall strength of the radicals.
I couldn't agree more, Dave. I shudder to think what would happen should the violence spread to African countries.

IMHO it is up to the "moderate" Moslems of the world to sort these extreme versions of Islam out. Unless they get together and come out, united, and state - with a degree of authority-that these actions are anti-islamic, the problem will always remain.

and jesus didn't always preach love and peace. He said something about everyone should get a sword--and if they didn't have one, they were to sell their clothes and go buy one. Naked, sword-wielding religious warriors!
Image

Sorry. I didn't add much and have gone off at a tangent ( I also viewd a really awful photo-by mistake-when I was looking for that picture. Don't search google images with the words "naked religious warrior". It's really upsetting)
"It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on his head"-Tyrion Lannister.

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Dave B
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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm

Re: War and Humanism

#20 Post by Dave B » July 28th, 2010, 9:09 pm

( I also viewd a really awful photo-by mistake-when I was looking for that picture. Don't search google images with the words "naked religious warrior". It's really upsetting)
:laughter:
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
Me, 2015

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