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Abortion

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.
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FloatingBoater
Posts: 189
Joined: September 16th, 2007, 11:50 am

Re: Abortion

#21 Post by FloatingBoater » January 27th, 2008, 7:15 am

Latest post of the previous page:

I am all in favor of a women who may want to terminate her pregnancy because she wants to GO FOR A HOLIDAY TO THE SWISS ALPS.
To admit that I was slightly taken aback by the stark emotionless remark above may appear to make me sound like some kind of moral crusader; let me assure you that I am nothing of the sort.

Taken on face value and assuming that the decision to go on the holiday in the Swiss Alps (or anywhere else for that matter), could be catered for by he morning after pill or early embryonic interruption would give me no problem, but I would have a problem if the practice became a substitute for contraception.

I can speak only for myself, but I know that to abort a foetus at an advanced stage of development is another issue entirely. I say this having worked at the sharp end of the NHS where the reality of the technique required wouldnecessitate dismemberment in the womb. I know from first hand that this procedure does have in some cases a direct effect on certain staff and clinicians who inevitably seek to avoid this type of operation.

To take a moral stance on any issue requires a thorough understanding of why we lean towards one way or another in our decision making; and like so many of our consumables and ’lifestyle’ products today, they seem to come pre-packed, sanitised and guaranteed fit for use without reference to any of the moral issues which surround them.
Not surprisingly one can sense that in our society today, there is a lack of social discipline or cohesion of understanding which I suggest emanates directly from the absence any form of identifiable moral compass.

Of course religion in all of its guises claims supreme authority on this one, but should not humanists also consider themselves socially and constructively moral too. I regard myself as liberal in my outlook as an individual, but I also have to live amongst millions of others who may also have their own take on what liberal attitudes mean to them.
It concerns me that on matters that require a great deal of mature thought, and that the visible result may be taken completely out of context by immature minds of later generations.

kind regards FB
Last edited by Maria Mac on January 27th, 2008, 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited to correct quoted text
Let us accept that the difference between a prophet and a madman is not what they say but whether the crowd accepts the story and tells their children to believe it.

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jaywhat
Posts: 15807
Joined: July 5th, 2007, 5:53 pm

Re: Abortion

#22 Post by jaywhat » January 27th, 2008, 9:52 am

FloatingBoater wrote:....I would have a problem if the practice became a substitute for contraception.
In many places and cases it is just that.

kbell
Posts: 1146
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 11:27 pm

Re: Abortion

#23 Post by kbell » January 27th, 2008, 3:54 pm

FloatingBoater wrote:
I am all in favor of a women who may want to terminate her pregnancy because she wants to GO FOR A HOLIDAY TO THE SWISS ALPS.
To admit that I was slightly taken aback by the stark emotionless remark above may appear to make me sound like some kind of moral crusader; let me assure you that I am nothing of the sort.

Taken on face value and assuming that the decision to go on the holiday in the Swiss Alps (or anywhere else for that matter), could be catered for by he morning after pill or early embryonic interruption would give me no problem, but I would have a problem if the practice became a substitute for contraception.
I have requested that your post be edited because it looks from the way you wrote it that I was saying I, Autumn, was in favour of woman having an abortion so she could go on holiday, when in fact I was quoting someone else on another forum. I thought that person was being sarcastic (i.e. an anti-abortion Christian caricaturing the anti-abortionist stance) but, judging by what Maria said, it sounds like he simply has a poor command of English.

I don't believe any woman has an abortion because she wants to go on holiday. I do think that sometimes abortion is used as a substitute for proper contraception - ie when the so-called rhythm method that the Catholic Church permits fails women will suddenly find they can, after all, ignore their Church's teaching and get an abortion if the alternative is the prospect of bearing a child they don't want.

Religion aside, I don't understand why so many young people in the West today EVER have unprotected sex, if they are not trying to have a baby.
Kathryn

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jaywhat
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Joined: July 5th, 2007, 5:53 pm

Re: Abortion

#24 Post by jaywhat » January 27th, 2008, 4:18 pm

Autumn wrote: Religion aside, I don't understand why so many young people in the West today EVER have unprotected sex, if they are not trying to have a baby.
I find that very easy to understand - heat of the moment and all that.

FloatingBoater
Posts: 189
Joined: September 16th, 2007, 11:50 am

Re: Abortion

#25 Post by FloatingBoater » February 4th, 2008, 3:17 am

According to a Daily Mail report this Sunday

‘Botched abortions mean that scores of babies are being born alive and left to die, an official report has revealed.
A total of 66 infants survived NHS termination attempts in one year alone, it emerged.
Rather than dying at birth as was intended, they were able to breathe unaided. About half were alive for an hour, while one survived ten hours’.

I thought this report pertinent to the on going discussion:- :sad:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1774
Let us accept that the difference between a prophet and a madman is not what they say but whether the crowd accepts the story and tells their children to believe it.

Lucretius
Posts: 262
Joined: July 26th, 2007, 11:19 pm

Re: Abortion

#26 Post by Lucretius » February 4th, 2008, 12:01 pm

jaywhat wrote:
Autumn wrote: Religion aside, I don't understand why so many young people in the West today EVER have unprotected sex, if they are not trying to have a baby.
I find that very easy to understand - heat of the moment and all that.
It is called puberty. An asteroid wouldn't have stopped me at that age. I think all anyone can do is educate. Make people fully aware of the risks. Show them some graphic pictures of venereal diseases even. Tell them its imperative to practice sex safely. After that there isn't much you can do really do.
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken

kbell
Posts: 1146
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 11:27 pm

Re: Abortion

#27 Post by kbell » February 4th, 2008, 1:52 pm

Fair enough but by 'young people' I was thinking of pretty much anyone who isn't yet established with a career and a home of their own and who would consider an unplanned pregnancy to be a disaster. That includes many people who are well into their twenties.
Kathryn

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Alan C.
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 3:35 pm

Re: Abortion

#28 Post by Alan C. » February 4th, 2008, 2:02 pm

FloatingBoater, I would take anything you read in The Daily (hate) Mail, with a very large pinch of salt, the Daily Mail is about as factual as the bible.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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wizzy
Posts: 149
Joined: September 10th, 2007, 7:54 pm

Re: Abortion

#29 Post by wizzy » February 4th, 2008, 8:50 pm

Alan C. wrote:FloatingBoater, I would take anything you read in The Daily (hate) Mail, with a very large pinch of salt, the Daily Mail is about as factual as the bible.
Hear hear!

FloatingBoater
Posts: 189
Joined: September 16th, 2007, 11:50 am

Re: Abortion

#30 Post by FloatingBoater » February 4th, 2008, 9:04 pm

If it was untrue, why aren't legal writs flying around.?
Just beceause it's trendily leftwing these days debunk anything that doesn't come from the Gurniad or the Socialist Worker as being risable adds nothing to the search for honest reportage: in fact, it's about as as intelligent as saying 'yahboo-sucks' simply because there is nothing else to offer. :yawn:
Let us accept that the difference between a prophet and a madman is not what they say but whether the crowd accepts the story and tells their children to believe it.

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Alan C.
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Re: Abortion

#31 Post by Alan C. » February 4th, 2008, 10:09 pm

From the Daily Mail
Botched abortions mean that scores of babies are being born alive and left to die, an official report has revealed.
You'll notice they don't say what this official report is or provide a link to it.
The Daily Mail is a conservative, bigoted, shit stirring, homophobic, xenophobic rag, when articles appear in the mediascan from the Daily Mail, I usually don't even bother to read them (sorry Alan)
I usually just read the comments, for a laugh.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Lucretius
Posts: 262
Joined: July 26th, 2007, 11:19 pm

Re: Abortion

#32 Post by Lucretius » February 5th, 2008, 2:36 am

Alan C. wrote:
From the Daily Mail
Botched abortions mean that scores of babies are being born alive and left to die, an official report has revealed.
You'll notice they don't say what this official report is or provide a link to it.
The Daily Mail is a conservative, bigoted, shit stirring, homophobic, xenophobic rag, when articles appear in the mediascan from the Daily Mail, I usually don't even bother to read them (sorry Alan)
I usually just read the comments, for a laugh.
Agreed.
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken

DougS
Posts: 737
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 9:48 am

Re: Abortion

#33 Post by DougS » February 5th, 2008, 6:48 am

Lucretius wrote:
jaywhat wrote:
Autumn wrote: Religion aside, I don't understand why so many young people in the West today EVER have unprotected sex, if they are not trying to have a baby.
I find that very easy to understand - heat of the moment and all that.
It is called puberty. An asteroid wouldn't have stopped me at that age. I think all anyone can do is educate. Make people fully aware of the risks. Show them some graphic pictures of venereal diseases even. Tell them its imperative to practice sex safely. After that there isn't much you can do really do.
My question would be how come we have such a high teenage pregnancy rate: for the under-16s it's twice as high as in Germany, three times as high as in France and six times as high as in the Netherlands - and it's rising.

I presume puberty happens to kids in those countries does it?

Fia
Posts: 5480
Joined: July 6th, 2007, 8:29 pm

Re: Abortion

#34 Post by Fia » February 5th, 2008, 9:57 am

I presume puberty happens to kids in those countries does it?
I think in the UK we have two problems which compound the teenage pregnancy rate:

Firstly the social acceptability of the drug alcohol being used to deliberately get drunk. It's far harder to say "no" when well under the influence.

Secondly the fact that many parents feel uncomfortable about discussing sex with their offspring. The Dutch in particular have risen above this embarrassment and are so much better at this than we are.

What to do? We parents have a responsibility to show by example alcohol can be a fine way to relax without going for drunk, and introduce alcohol so it's something to be enjoyed and understood e.g. my children can have watered down wine with their meals and taste different alcohols. Consequently they, so far, have spurned coloured sweetened alcopops but enjoy a glass of wine and a small G&T on special occasions.

And we need to get over our embarrassment about talking fully about sex with our offspring and their friends, and keeping the lines of communication open. Not easy, as my 17yr old rolls her eyes "not sex again, Mum", but again, so far, it has worked.

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Alan H
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Re: Abortion

#35 Post by Alan H » February 5th, 2008, 11:51 pm

Alan C. wrote:when articles appear in the mediascan from the Daily Mail, I usually don't even bother to read them (sorry Alan)
I usually just read the comments, for a laugh.
Don't apologise! It is sometimes good to see what their take on events is, though!
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Lucretius
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Re: Abortion

#36 Post by Lucretius » February 6th, 2008, 2:22 am

As for why teenage pregnancy rates are higher in some countries than others. I suspect a variety of psychosocial factors are involved.
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken

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Alan C.
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Re: Abortion

#37 Post by Alan C. » February 6th, 2008, 11:08 am

Lucretius wrote:As for why teenage pregnancy rates are higher in some countries than others. I suspect a variety of psychosocial factors are involved.
I suspect our social system could have a bearing on this, get a child, get a council house, get cash handouts. I know a girl who has 3 bairns (I think 3 different fathers) she does very nicely, she's got the council house, gets the handouts and drives a people carrier.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Beki
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Re: Abortion

#38 Post by Beki » February 19th, 2008, 2:23 pm

As someone who was one of these (shock - horror!!) teenage mums - I have a couple of points.

1. There is no such thing as a single-parent unless one of them is dead. The father of my child decided after four years that he 'didn't want to be a dad because it was too hard' - just like that! Society still lets far too many of these guys walk away from their responsibilities with almost total impunity. No social stigma for them never mind the lack of financial penalties.....

2. A large proportion of teenage mums that I know got their lives back on track precisely because they stepped up to the responsibility that this entailed - it helped focus them on longer term objectives like going back to college, getting qualifications and 'bettering themselves' for the sake of the kids.

Alan C: wrote:
I suspect our social system could have a bearing on this, get a child, get a council house, get cash handouts. I know a girl who has 3 bairns (I think 3 different fathers) she does very nicely, she's got the council house, gets the handouts and drives a people carrier.
So there are three different blokes out there who have had children by this woman? Have they got any more kids to any more women - or doesn't that count? Do they contribute financially / emotionally to the well-being of the children that they have sired? Is contraception solely the responsibility of the female?

Having been the sole provider for my son for the last 16 years I can tell you that it is NOT an easy option. OK, so you might get a Council House but this has only become more of an issue in the last few years because so many of them have been sold off and there is now a total lack of affordable housing for anyone which is appalling. I can't see how bringing up three kids on your own could be called 'doing very nicely'. It wasn't nice for me - and I only had one!! (Maybe the lady you refer to knows something that I don't! :) I couldn't afford a car - never mind a people carrier!!

I can't just dismiss teenage mums with the abandon that seems to pervade any discussion on the topic - please don't tar all with the same brush. Arguably you have more energy to spare when you are younger (I certainly couldn't do it all again now!) and yes, life will be harder, but you can get through that when you have a focus and a reason for making sure that you succeed. As several posters noted above, the important thing is that you recognise that you are responsible for the child you have brought into the world - and that should include all dads as well as mums!
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - M Ghandi

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Alan C.
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Re: Abortion

#39 Post by Alan C. » February 19th, 2008, 3:01 pm

So there are three different blokes out there who have had children by this woman? Have they got any more kids to any more women - or doesn't that count?
I really don't know about two of them as I don't know who they are. the third one lives here in the village, and married a woman last year who has grown up kids.
Do they contribute financially
The one I know doesn't and he's quite happy to admit it.
emotionally to the well-being of the children that they have sired?
Well she lives across the road from us, and I'd never seen a man at the house till recently, I think now there is a man living with her, but he's only recently come onto the scene.
is contraception solely the responsibility of the female?
Absolutely not!
please don't tar all with the same brush.
Sorry, that would be silly and wasn't my intention.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

Beki
Posts: 710
Joined: July 5th, 2007, 8:43 am

Re: Abortion

#40 Post by Beki » February 19th, 2008, 3:17 pm

Alan C. wrote:
Do they contribute financially
The one I know doesn't and he's quite happy to admit it.
That is exactly what I am talking about!! One of my finest hours was at a party once where I managed to reduce a bloke to tears because he was proudly proclaiming that 'the bitch' (AKA the mother of his child) got nothing from him at all. I totally lost the plot with him and let him have it both barrels in front of everyone there (ok, I had had a bit to drink which helped!)

This needs to stop being acceptable behaviour (the lack of support - not the reducing someone to tears which is completely fine if the circumstances demand!! :twisted: ). There are a whole bunch of kids out there with few decent male role models and it is IMPORTANT for kids to know what being a good man means.

Sorry for the rant above Alan C. - just a topic that is close to home :kiss:
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. - M Ghandi

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Alan C.
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Re: Abortion

#41 Post by Alan C. » February 19th, 2008, 4:15 pm

Beki wrote:
Alan C. wrote:
Do they contribute financially
The one I know doesn't and he's quite happy to admit it.
That is exactly what I am talking about!! One of my finest hours was at a party once where I managed to reduce a bloke to tears because he was proudly proclaiming that 'the bitch' (AKA the mother of his child) got nothing from him at all. I totally lost the plot with him and let him have it both barrels in front of everyone there (ok, I had had a bit to drink which helped!)

This needs to stop being acceptable behaviour (the lack of support - not the reducing someone to tears which is completely fine if the circumstances demand!! :twisted: ). There are a whole bunch of kids out there with few decent male role models and it is IMPORTANT for kids to know what being a good man means.

Sorry for the rant above Alan C. - just a topic that is close to home :kiss:
Nae bother Beki, I'm not always as clear as I should/could be.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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