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Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

For topics that are more about faith, religion and religious organisations than anything else.
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Gnostic Bishop
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Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#1 Postby Gnostic Bishop » March 17th, 2018, 12:50 pm

Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

https://www.google.ca/search?source=hp& ... CgTyqsYAOA

Fraud is a broad term that refers to a variety of offenses involving dishonesty or "fraudulent acts". In essence, fraud is the intentional deception of a person or entity by another made for monetary or personal gain. Fraud offenses always include some sort of false statement, misrepresentation, or deceitful conduct.

Most governments and countries have fraud laws of some kinds. They generally interfere with religious fraudsters only when physical harm is being done to our gullible citizens yet ignore the monetary theft that the fraudsters fleece from their victims. Prosperity ministries are the most flagrant of these immoral religions, but all religions based on demonstrable lies would be included in this question.

Our governments are quite good at acting against obvious fraudsters yet seem reluctant to protect our more gullible citizens when it comes down to religions.

Religions, to me, get a free pass to lie and steal all they can from victims, especially the older citizens even when governments know about the fraud.

I begin to see the inaction of governments on these religious fraudsters as a dereliction of duty.

Do you?

Regards
DL

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animist
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#2 Postby animist » March 17th, 2018, 1:06 pm

I guess the problem is that one cannot actually prove that any particular religion is fraudulent, since none of us has experienced the hereafter in order to test its claims

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#3 Postby Gnostic Bishop » March 17th, 2018, 9:06 pm

animist wrote:I guess the problem is that one cannot actually prove that any particular religion is fraudulent, since none of us has experienced the hereafter in order to test its claims


I do not concern myself with proving the whole religion as fraudulent.

My concern is the lies that the clergy use to loosen the purse strings of the gullible adherents.

What you are proposing is a reverse onus on us to prove the lie is s lie.

That is not how fraud works. It is to the ones making a positive claim to show that it is a true statement. Not for the rest of us to show it is a lie.

The fact that none of us return from the here after, as you say, is all the evidence I need to know that those who claim it exists are liars.

Regards
DL

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animist
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#4 Postby animist » March 17th, 2018, 9:29 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
animist wrote:I guess the problem is that one cannot actually prove that any particular religion is fraudulent, since none of us has experienced the hereafter in order to test its claims


I do not concern myself with proving the whole religion as fraudulent.

My concern is the lies that the clergy use to loosen the purse strings of the gullible adherents.

What you are proposing is a reverse onus on us to prove the lie is s lie.

That is not how fraud works. It is to the ones making a positive claim to show that it is a true statement. Not for the rest of us to show it is a lie.

The fact that none of us return from the here after, as you say, is all the evidence I need to know that those who claim it exists are liars.

Regards
DL
interesting angle. I guess that many religions do not incorporate revisitations from the Afterlife in their prospectuses. I think that fraud has to be proven to be such in terrestrial litigation, and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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Nick
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#5 Postby Nick » March 18th, 2018, 3:48 pm

The problem with treating the religious as fraudsters is that they actually believe the nonsense, like some people believe in socialism :wink: It's difficult and undesirable to legislate against stupidity.

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#6 Postby Gnostic Bishop » March 18th, 2018, 4:51 pm

animist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
animist wrote:I guess the problem is that one cannot actually prove that any particular religion is fraudulent, since none of us has experienced the hereafter in order to test its claims


I do not concern myself with proving the whole religion as fraudulent.

My concern is the lies that the clergy use to loosen the purse strings of the gullible adherents.

What you are proposing is a reverse onus on us to prove the lie is s lie.

That is not how fraud works. It is to the ones making a positive claim to show that it is a true statement. Not for the rest of us to show it is a lie.

The fact that none of us return from the here after, as you say, is all the evidence I need to know that those who claim it exists are liars.

Regards
DL
interesting angle. I guess that many religions do not incorporate revisitations from the Afterlife in their prospectuses. I think that fraud has to be proven to be such in terrestrial litigation, and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence


Yes it is when lies are said for cash and a judge decides that it is a lie.

If all you are going to contribute are word games, go away.

Regards
DL

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#7 Postby Gnostic Bishop » March 18th, 2018, 4:53 pm

Nick wrote:The problem with treating the religious as fraudsters is that they actually believe the nonsense, like some people believe in socialism :wink: It's difficult and undesirable to legislate against stupidity.


It is for sure, but to believe that a fraudster believes his own lies is not very intuitive.

Regards
DL

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animist
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#8 Postby animist » March 20th, 2018, 10:51 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
animist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
I do not concern myself with proving the whole religion as fraudulent.

My concern is the lies that the clergy use to loosen the purse strings of the gullible adherents.

What you are proposing is a reverse onus on us to prove the lie is s lie.

That is not how fraud works. It is to the ones making a positive claim to show that it is a true statement. Not for the rest of us to show it is a lie.

The fact that none of us return from the here after, as you say, is all the evidence I need to know that those who claim it exists are liars.

Regards
DL
interesting angle. I guess that many religions do not incorporate revisitations from the Afterlife in their prospectuses. I think that fraud has to be proven to be such in terrestrial litigation, and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence


Yes it is when lies are said for cash and a judge decides that it is a lie.

If all you are going to contribute are word games, go away.

Regards
DL

like to prove what you claim, ie that in fraud cases the defendant has to prove that what s/he says is true?

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animist
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#9 Postby animist » March 20th, 2018, 10:58 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Nick wrote:The problem with treating the religious as fraudsters is that they actually believe the nonsense, like some people believe in socialism :wink: It's difficult and undesirable to legislate against stupidity.


It is for sure, but to believe that a fraudster believes his own lies is not very intuitive.

Regards
DL
you are begging the question here. By definition, a lie is an untruthful statement known to be so by the person making it. Since neither you nor I have direct knowledge of these people whom you believe to be charlatans, you cannot assume that they "know" what they say is untrue, and by calling what they say "lies" you are arguing in a circle. Further, for all I or you know, what these religion pushers claim to be true may actually be true - we cannot disprove much of it, can we?

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animist
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#10 Postby animist » March 20th, 2018, 10:59 am

Nick wrote:The problem with treating the religious as fraudsters is that they actually believe the nonsense, like some people believe in socialism :wink: It's difficult and undesirable to legislate against stupidity.
yes, and Brexit is another example :laughter:

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#11 Postby Gnostic Bishop » March 20th, 2018, 1:01 pm

animist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Nick wrote:The problem with treating the religious as fraudsters is that they actually believe the nonsense, like some people believe in socialism :wink: It's difficult and undesirable to legislate against stupidity.


It is for sure, but to believe that a fraudster believes his own lies is not very intuitive.

Regards
DL
you are begging the question here. By definition, a lie is an untruthful statement known to be so by the person making it. Since neither you nor I have direct knowledge of these people whom you believe to be charlatans, you cannot assume that they "know" what they say is untrue, and by calling what they say "lies" you are arguing in a circle. Further, for all I or you know, what these religion pushers claim to be true may actually be true - we cannot disprove much of it, can we?


You offer a logical fallacy.

It is not to us to show that a liar knows he is lying. It is to him to show that he is telling the truth based on facts.

If you cry wolf, it is to you to show the tracts or wolf scat. It is not to me to prove that the wolf was never there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyA8cIzosFU

I think this answers both of your posts my friend.

Regards
DL

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animist
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#12 Postby animist » March 21st, 2018, 11:08 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
animist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
It is for sure, but to believe that a fraudster believes his own lies is not very intuitive.

Regards
DL
you are begging the question here. By definition, a lie is an untruthful statement known to be so by the person making it. Since neither you nor I have direct knowledge of these people whom you believe to be charlatans, you cannot assume that they "know" what they say is untrue, and by calling what they say "lies" you are arguing in a circle. Further, for all I or you know, what these religion pushers claim to be true may actually be true - we cannot disprove much of it, can we?


You offer a logical fallacy.

It is not to us to show that a liar knows he is lying. It is to him to show that he is telling the truth based on facts.

If you cry wolf, it is to you to show the tracts or wolf scat. It is not to me to prove that the wolf was never there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyA8cIzosFU

I think this answers both of your posts my friend.

Regards
DL

so if someone shouts "wolf" or "fire" you disbelieve them and demand evidence before you escape the alleged threat? OK, but I would get out first and then, if the threat does not materialise, question the person who made the claim. You obviously do not seem to get my points about what constitutes a lie, so I will leave it at this

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#13 Postby Gnostic Bishop » March 21st, 2018, 12:17 pm

animist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
animist wrote:you are begging the question here. By definition, a lie is an untruthful statement known to be so by the person making it. Since neither you nor I have direct knowledge of these people whom you believe to be charlatans, you cannot assume that they "know" what they say is untrue, and by calling what they say "lies" you are arguing in a circle. Further, for all I or you know, what these religion pushers claim to be true may actually be true - we cannot disprove much of it, can we?


You offer a logical fallacy.

It is not to us to show that a liar knows he is lying. It is to him to show that he is telling the truth based on facts.

If you cry wolf, it is to you to show the tracts or wolf scat. It is not to me to prove that the wolf was never there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyA8cIzosFU

I think this answers both of your posts my friend.

Regards
DL

so if someone shouts "wolf" or "fire" you disbelieve them and demand evidence before you escape the alleged threat? OK, but I would get out first and then, if the threat does not materialise, question the person who made the claim. You obviously do not seem to get my points about what constitutes a lie, so I will leave it at this


You would not look to confirm the fire if you did not see or smell any smoke. Why would you not investigate a bit before running?

Religiously speaking, if someone says that there is a supernatural God, and you do not demand evidence or proof, then you would be quite gullible.

That aside. I hope you now recognize what a logical fallacy is.

Regards
DL

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#14 Postby animist » March 22nd, 2018, 8:54 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
so if someone shouts "wolf" or "fire" you disbelieve them and demand evidence before you escape the alleged threat? OK, but I would get out first and then, if the threat does not materialise, question the person who made the claim. You obviously do not seem to get my points about what constitutes a lie, so I will leave it at this


You would not look to confirm the fire if you did not see or smell any smoke. Why would you not investigate a bit before running?

Religiously speaking, if someone says that there is a supernatural God, and you do not demand evidence or proof, then you would be quite gullible.

That aside. I hope you now recognize what a logical fallacy is.

Regards
DL
last point first - no, I do not recognise, from what you say, what a logical fallacy is, so let us deal with this. What is a logical fallacy? What logical fallacy have I or anyone else committed? On the fire example, surely what I would do depends on the circumstances. If we were in the open air and someone shouted "Fire!" I would indeed wonder what relevance this had to me. If I were in a cinema, then I might well be less concerned with the reasonableness of the claim and more concerned with getting into the open. As far as concerns a God, I agree that anyone accepting such a claim without proof would be gullible, but we seem to be drifting from your OP, which concerned possible regulation of religions deemed by you (or someone) to be fraudulent, ie intentionally misleading

Jerome P
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#15 Postby Jerome P » March 23rd, 2018, 1:22 pm

A worldview which fraudulently insinuates itself as a religion but instead promotes terrorism should be regulated. Take for instance, Communism and Nazism, if they had branded themselves as religions rather than political systems (and they did actually represent themselves as intolerant religions, although most people don't realize this).

There was probably a time when Christianity was like that, but nowadays, it should be sufficient to keep the churches out of politics. Suppression and persecution never works. The Russians who had suffered under Stalin's rule and deprived of their religious rites and freedom found it easy to collude with the Nazis when they took over. Also, science is no substitute for metaphysical needs and must never take a dogmatic turn.

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#16 Postby Gnostic Bishop » March 26th, 2018, 4:24 pm

animist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
so if someone shouts "wolf" or "fire" you disbelieve them and demand evidence before you escape the alleged threat? OK, but I would get out first and then, if the threat does not materialise, question the person who made the claim. You obviously do not seem to get my points about what constitutes a lie, so I will leave it at this


You would not look to confirm the fire if you did not see or smell any smoke. Why would you not investigate a bit before running?

Religiously speaking, if someone says that there is a supernatural God, and you do not demand evidence or proof, then you would be quite gullible.

That aside. I hope you now recognize what a logical fallacy is.

Regards
DL
last point first - no, I do not recognise, from what you say, what a logical fallacy is, so let us deal with this. What is a logical fallacy? What logical fallacy have I or anyone else committed? On the fire example, surely what I would do depends on the circumstances. If we were in the open air and someone shouted "Fire!" I would indeed wonder what relevance this had to me. If I were in a cinema, then I might well be less concerned with the reasonableness of the claim and more concerned with getting into the open. As far as concerns a God, I agree that anyone accepting such a claim without proof would be gullible, but we seem to be drifting from your OP, which concerned possible regulation of religions deemed by you (or someone) to be fraudulent, ie intentionally misleading


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyA8cIzosFU

As to the O.P.

Do you see religions as mostly preaching truth or lies?

If lies, do you think that a thing that should be allowed to continue in light of the damage religions bring to us, like homophobia and misogyny?

Regards
DL

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#17 Postby Gnostic Bishop » March 26th, 2018, 4:27 pm

Jerome P wrote:A worldview which fraudulently insinuates itself as a religion but instead promotes terrorism should be regulated. Take for instance, Communism and Nazism, if they had branded themselves as religions rather than political systems (and they did actually represent themselves as intolerant religions, although most people don't realize this).

There was probably a time when Christianity was like that, but nowadays, it should be sufficient to keep the churches out of politics. Suppression and persecution never works. The Russians who had suffered under Stalin's rule and deprived of their religious rites and freedom found it easy to collude with the Nazis when they took over. Also, science is no substitute for metaphysical needs and must never take a dogmatic turn.


Do you really think, especially in the U.S., that there is a separation of church and state?

if there were, why is the first stop of a new president right after the signing in is to a Church?

Regards
DL

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#18 Postby tempogain » March 27th, 2018, 4:52 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:if there were, why is the first stop of a new president right after the signing in is to a Church?


Is this supposed to be an example of a logical fallacy? :) How are the two things related?

What kind of thing do you have in mind specifically as fraudulent religious activity? Some things are in fact prosecuted.

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animist
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#19 Postby animist » March 30th, 2018, 10:02 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
animist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
You would not look to confirm the fire if you did not see or smell any smoke. Why would you not investigate a bit before running?

Religiously speaking, if someone says that there is a supernatural God, and you do not demand evidence or proof, then you would be quite gullible.

That aside. I hope you now recognize what a logical fallacy is.

Regards
DL
last point first - no, I do not recognise, from what you say, what a logical fallacy is, so let us deal with this. What is a logical fallacy? What logical fallacy have I or anyone else committed? On the fire example, surely what I would do depends on the circumstances. If we were in the open air and someone shouted "Fire!" I would indeed wonder what relevance this had to me. If I were in a cinema, then I might well be less concerned with the reasonableness of the claim and more concerned with getting into the open. As far as concerns a God, I agree that anyone accepting such a claim without proof would be gullible, but we seem to be drifting from your OP, which concerned possible regulation of religions deemed by you (or someone) to be fraudulent, ie intentionally misleading


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyA8cIzosFU

As to the O.P.

Do you see religions as mostly preaching truth or lies?

If lies, do you think that a thing that should be allowed to continue in light of the damage religions bring to us, like homophobia and misogyny?

Regards
DL

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animist
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

#20 Postby animist » March 30th, 2018, 10:05 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:As to the O.P.

Do you see religions as mostly preaching truth or lies?

If lies, do you think that a thing that should be allowed to continue in light of the damage religions bring to us, like homophobia and misogyny?

Regards
DL
you do not seem to listen to what I say, so I will break it down. Not all false statements are lies, can you understand and accept this?


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