Catholic reaction to Kansas child abuse crisis

[Skyfrog]

More of my shameless blog-plugging: http://catholicinternetwatch.blogspot.c ... trial.html

I've been writing about the Catholic reaction to Bishop Robert Finn being indicted on suspicion of failing to report the discovery of child pornography on a priest's computer. In various places on the internet - in forums, blogs, comments under online newspaper articles and elsewhere - the reaction from some Catholics has been...umm...disturbing. At one time I was seriously considering Catholicism, and in my journey I have come across some crazy stuff, but every now and then there are times like this when my jaw still drops to the ground. Let me share a few of the comments I've found in response to news of the indictment.

And let those who would zealously prosecute the Church beware:
one day the tables ARE going to be turned.
As St. Paul put it, on the Last Day,
the members of the Church (clergy and laity) will even judge
the Angels Themselves.
So those worldly prosecutors who are out to vigorously stick it to Christ's Church
should realize that one day it is they themselves whose sins will be judged
by the very Catholic Church, glorified, that they hate so much on Earth.
And they will be shown as much mercy as they have shown Christ's church.
Not one iota more, not one iota less.
The children need to be, and must be protected,
but you had by God better be careful how you treat Christ's Church on Earth.
They had better put aside ANY vindictive, worldly, antiCatholic agendas, and stick
strictly to the facts at hand and the issue at hand: the protection of little children from predators. If they or anybody else uses this sick tragedy as an excuse to carry out a long desired vendetta against the Catholic church, and it's orthodox teachings, then be most solemnly assured that they will, most defintely will, suffer terrifying eternal consequences for it.
If you eat pope, you'll die of it, the old saying goes. And it is true. 100% of the time.

I believe that this is the Devil's attack on the Church to try to discredit it and make it seem as if Catholicism is not the true faith.

Should the State be able to indict clergy? No, seriously. I am under the impression that the more traditional thing is for the Church to deal with her own, just like the military does or used to do. The thought of a bishop on trial by the State is chilling, because it is chilling to think that the State can get at the Church like this.

Monks and priests and nuns being arrested I could handle, but the thought of a bishop being tried by temporal powers - that brings the fact that we live in a godless society home. A bishop just ain't any person. But, for the secular state he is a regular John Doe, who can be arrested for criminal cover-up, and eventually for criminal hate speech too.

Earthly justice can never be perfect, whether it is carried out by the Church or the State. Thus, in any case you'll have criminal priests, and criminal laymen, running around. We should not support that the State have the power to imprison the Church's hierarchy, in the hopes that a couple more pedophiles might be punished. That is a bad trade-off. It's not ideal.

After all, what's stopping the state from fabricating all sorts of cases against priests and bishops? Its aversion to power? I think "if the State can put a priest in prison, it will use this to persecute the Church" is more likely than "if the Church is left in charge with punishing her own, children will be molested."

The CC [Catholic Church] is not just some religion borne of man's will. It is the Kingdom of God and she is not subject to any man but God alone. The Kingdom has been provided with every tool to take care of herself and her own.

The CC is an independent State and Religious Institution comissioned by Chrits alone, it is not a man made institution. She is to rule all nations and not the other way around.

For that many have died and still die for it.
All nations are to be subject to her for Christ promissed that anyone who dont listen to His Church, will pay the price. I think we have seen this happened over and over again.
It is a danger thing to do, to let pagan nations to intervieng in the Church's affair. this could be the beginning of a much control over the Church by the pagans who are judging themselves is much righteous than God.

Pretty sickening, isn't it? It makes me sad, because I genuinely feel sorry for the decent Catholics who have been devastated by all of this stuff.

[Dave B]

There do seem to be a large number of very disturbed people in the religious world. This is where religious belief definitely tips over into mental illness.

[Sandra Price]

Dave, I absolutely agree with you. At the age of 12, I was attacked and raped by my alcoholic step father. I ran out of their home and across Santa Monica in fear as this was during the last year of WW2, and the curfew was to be obeyed. My grandmother washed me off and made me promise not to ever tell anyone what happened. "Christian girls do not get raped." She sent me back to boarding school the next day telling her to call when I got my period. I had no idea what she was talking about but I did get my period and called her. I felt very ashamed about this.

Needless to say, I did not train my two girls to keep anything quiet!

[Dave B]

A sad, but unfortunately not uncommon, story, Sandra and I feel for you. I had a very close friend who was abused by both her father and the priest at the faith school she attended. It messed up her whole life. I am glad that you made a move for progress with your own children.

Skyfrog, I read you as a decent sort and would not wish to count you amongst those at the extreme edge of the religious spectrum. But religion is always going to be a safe place for what one might call nutters of one kind or another whilst they act in that way. There is a great deal of evidence that perverts, fraudsters, conmen and the like find it a happy hunting ground.

Until all religions get their act together and turn over all miscreants to secular justice they will not get any support from right thinking people. To keep quiet about it makes a person as guilty as if the committed the act. Perhaps the Rat Catchers could lock their perverts up in strict, silent monasteries for the rest of their lives, providing there is no monk there under 30. And provide evidence to a court that this has been done.

[Sandra Price]

It was about a year later when I realized that my not being a Christian freed me from guilt. Being ashamed is very close to feeling guilt. My kids all learned right from wrong and when others do wrong things one must speak up.......I joined up with a group of women who did speak up in the late 70s and formed a Children's Village in California to never allow an abused child to be placed back in the family. We raised hell but we had some heavy duty money behind us. Yes, wealth can be used for the good of many. I did not realize that the Eisenhower Medical center right down the street from me here has taken over the abused children's project.

Sometimes we have to step out and over the law to protect children.

[lewist]

Thank you, Sandra, for telling us your experience.

I think this is relevant. The figures given are for child murder, not abuse, and whereas the murder figures are horrifying, the figures for child abuse must be much worse. It's interesting that the state with the highest rate of child murder is Texas.

Does the attitude of many American catholics go along with a national refusal to recognise the problem?

[Skyfrog]

Sandra, your account elicits my deepest sympathy and respect, and I'm sure others are feeling the same. The abuse of children is amongst the most damaging of all crimes, yet again and again our societies let the perpetrators get away with it.

Sadly, child abuse has historically been covered up across Western society, not just in the Catholic Church. Schools, children's homes and youth organisations have all gone through similar problems. So too have ordinary families. It does seem, though, that the climate of indoctrination and fear in the Catholic Church makes abuse particularly damaging to the victims, as well as particularly difficult to uncover. I cannot understand why they go loopy about the rights of embryos, yet treat actual real children with such cruel disdain.

[Trickle]

I think the root cause behind the child abuse lies not with religion but that the protectionist nature of the Catholic Church as an institution, the trust people invest in clergymen and the considerable access to children clergymen enjoy.

It's important to remember that the Catholic Church is large organisation and that in any such large an organisation cases of abuse will occur despite the best efforts of all involved. Unfortunately the senior clergy in the Catholic Chuch best efforts were aimed towards stopping the abuses coming to light rather than protecting the children so the problem was allowed to persist and will likely continue to persist into the future.

I don't doubt that there were many clergymen who were horrified by the actions of those who had abused the children and the trust of Catholics around the world but such people have been strangly silent, or possibly just simply ignored, in the media coverage.

[Sandra Price]

All human beings should be irate when any adult man or woman takes advantage of a small child. The only way to stop this is through enforcement of the laws (even within the damn Church)

I worked for years trying to end the death of many unwanted puppies and kittens. We found homes for hundreds of these animals. The problem with black kittens came directly from the fear of Satan. For that reason I ended up with 3 unwanted beautiful black cats. I have been labeled as a witch and the daughter of Lucifer and I dared ever to allow one of my cats outside. Many pet stores and animal control facilities will not take in black cats during October due to the number who are slaughtered by our lovely Christian children in our neighborhoods.

If any child is abused by any adult, even a member of the family, we all need to stand up and report them. There is no justification for abusing a young child.

[animist]

the Theologica site discussed this recently

http://theologica.ning.com/forum/topics ... the-result

If you click on the "once before" phrase in Karl's post, you go to an earlier discussion. James seems to be Catholic, and it seems to be that "confessional privilege" in the RCC prevents priests from denouncing abusers, murderers, intending murderers etc

[Sandra Price]

I'm not surprised! Devout Christians can justify anything even an abomination like abusing a child.

[Alan H]

It just get worse and worse:

300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

The programme in on Tuesday night on BBC2 at 9pm

[animist]

well I could believe anything about the RCC - as someone said, it's just big, and there are many good Catholics. In the Spanish Civil War, to which Alan's post refers, priests would bless babies of Republican families in areas taken over by Franco, then "dispatch" them. More recently, the fascist regimes which took over in the 70s in Argentina, Chile and Uruguay were keen on murdering leftwingers and taking their kids for adoption. No doubt similar things happen in avowedly leftwing totalitarian regimes, but it is this aura of sanctity which really disgusts.

[animist]

All human beings should be irate when any adult man or woman takes advantage of a small child. The only way to stop this is through enforcement of the laws (even within the damn Church)

I worked for years trying to end the death of many unwanted puppies and kittens. We found homes for hundreds of these animals. The problem with black kittens came directly from the fear of Satan. For that reason I ended up with 3 unwanted beautiful black cats. I have been labeled as a witch and the daughter of Lucifer and I dared ever to allow one of my cats outside. Many pet stores and animal control facilities will not take in black cats during October due to the number who are slaughtered by our lovely Christian children in our neighborhoods.

If any child is abused by any adult, even a member of the family, we all need to stand up and report them. There is no justification for abusing a young child.

hi Sandra - your mentioning of this primitive association of black with evil seems to relate to an article I've just read on bullfighting in Spain - apparently, children are indoctrinated into the practice by being told that bulls are evil. Well done for your work with our fluffy friends!

[Tetenterre]

In the Spanish Civil War, to which Alan's post refers, priests would bless babies of Republican families in areas taken over by Franco, then "dispatch" them. [...] but it is this aura of sanctity which really disgusts.

There's a very long and ignoble tradition of this sort of thing. At the Sack of Magdeburg in the 30-Years War, when the Catholic League soldiers went into the city (which was populated by Protestants and Catholics), they were ordered: "Kill them all. God will find his own."

[Skyfrog]

It just get worse and worse:

300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

The programme in on Tuesday night on BBC2 at 9pm

I watched this earlier. Very disturbing, and some very sad stories :(. It is incredible that priests, nuns, doctors, nurses and others could take part in this kind of thing.

[Dave B]

It just get worse and worse:

300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

The programme in on Tuesday night on BBC2 at 9pm

I watched this earlier. Very disturbing, and some very sad stories :(. It is incredible that priests, nuns, doctors, nurses and others could take part in this kind of thing.

Ah, but Skyfrog, that is the kind of environment that religion can create in people's minds, if they believe they are doing god's work they will do anything; murder, kidnap, abuse . . .

This becomes a form of mass mental illness.

[Sandra Price]

One of the pressures put on American Voters is one of electing a government leader who talks to God. We had a debate last night in Las Vegas Nevada and every single Republican on that stage was a devout Christian. One or two even claim to talk to God before making any decisions on leadership. We have thousands of demonstrators running around trying to stop not just abortions, but birth control for women. Condoms for men keep them from diseases caught from loose women.

Several legal Doctors have been shot and beaten up by these Jesus talkers. You get a mind unfamiliar with right over wrong and inspired by political and religious doctrines and you will find murder fully justified by the churches. We have an Air Force Academy training our defense pilots that teaches Christianity along with flight training. We have the great Christian leader Pat Robertson who has a very active Christian University that President Bush took full advantage of the graduates, within his administration.

American Evangelical Fundamentalists are on the brink of mental illness. They operate in the ancient mode of the Inquisition laws imposed on France, Italy and Spain. The election of 2012 is being run by the Religious Right within the Republican Party. I saw the rise of this horror in 1999 when I tried to warn the voters that Gov. Bush from Texas was a born again Christian with no sense of right over wrong. He proved my point over his entire 8 years in the White House.

[Alan C.]

Sandra
One of the pressures put on American Voters is one of electing a government leader who talks to God

Here in the UK anyone who professed to "speaking to god" wouldn't have a snowball in hells chance of getting elected to any office.

From our last election.

Christian Party. seats 0 gains 0 loss 0 net 0 total votes 18,623 percentage 0.1

[Sandra Price]

Very good! Maybe I should return to my family roots in Scotland.