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“If humanists care about social and economic equality they should be opposed to all selective schools not just religious ones.”

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***Including Dawkins and Graylings new fiasco*** :)


June 6th, 2011, 4:09 pm
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Quite :)


June 6th, 2011, 4:15 pm
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Personally I'm dubious about 'schooling' (as opposed to education) altogether.


June 6th, 2011, 4:21 pm
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Misquoting, misrepresentation arguments accepted could also people express there view on the reported views of Dawkins on Faith schools as child abuse?

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/educatio ... 328902.htm

Sorry if this is a dillution - a separate thread?


June 6th, 2011, 4:24 pm
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Quote:
Dermo
“If humanists care about social and economic equality they should be opposed to all selective schools not just religious ones.”
Sectarian schools aren't going to be abolished any time soon so I suppose a counter is better than nothing.

I could die happy if I lived long enough to see an end to all sectarian schools but I don't hold out much hope.

Cross posting.
I agree with Dawkins indoctrination is child abuse.

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June 6th, 2011, 4:26 pm
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Including expressing a political opinion to a child?

Or a series of them?


June 6th, 2011, 4:28 pm
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Dermo wrote:
“If humanists care about social and economic equality they should be opposed to all selective schools not just religious ones.”


I care about social and economic equality of opportunity. That does not equate to sameness. I also do not believe that the greatest benefit is to be derived by imposing that naive and odious socialist view that, to create equality, you create an education system in which you give the minimum of opportunity to all to make damned sure that nobody gets more than anyone else. I think all education should be selective, but not on the selective models that have infested UK education for the last few centuries.

Let me clarify. Assume these three children: A is a scientific whizz-kid with little innate social or cultural leanings, B is a talented musician, and C seems to have none of the "usual" classroom ability but is very skilled with earth, wood and metals. As well as having their special talents developed to the full (which cannot happen in a one-size-fits-all model) I would want them all to have a basic, well-rounded education. Their paths through that well-rounded education cannot be the same because no single model would give them equal opportunity (and we know from bitter experience that the notion that such differing needs can be met in a single classroom or even a single school is jut pie-in-the-sky); to get equal opportunity, the well-rounded education would need to be tailored so as to be developed from the talents they have. This can only happen if they are selected for education on the basis of these needs.

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June 6th, 2011, 5:58 pm
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Quote:
Dermo
Including expressing a political opinion to a child?
You think expressing an opinion equals religious indoctrination? :sad2:

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June 6th, 2011, 7:23 pm
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Alan C. wrote:
Quote:
Dermo
Including expressing a political opinion to a child?
You think expressing an opinion equals religious indoctrination? :sad2:


Nope just wondering how you define indoctrination and where you draw the line. Asking a question is not necessarily a statement of opinion.


June 6th, 2011, 7:49 pm
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Dermo wrote:
Alan C. wrote:
Quote:
Dermo
Including expressing a political opinion to a child?
You think expressing an opinion equals religious indoctrination? :sad2:


Nope just wondering how you define indoctrination and where you draw the line. Asking a question is not necessarily a statement of opinion.
Nothing wrong in expressing any kind of opinion to a child, providing it is offered in terms that the child can understand and it is carefully explained that this is only the expresser's opinion - not immutable fact.

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June 6th, 2011, 9:44 pm
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I define indoctrination as telling a four year old child it will burn in hell for eternity if it doesn't accept the beliefs of it's parents.

I could go on but don't think I need to.

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June 6th, 2011, 9:53 pm
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OK Dermo.... cards on the table time. You invited us to discuss faith schools, selective schools, etc. Several people have responded,. I, for one, questioned the concept of 'schooling' per se. What's your position?


June 6th, 2011, 10:35 pm
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thundril wrote:
OK Dermo.... cards on the table time. You invited us to discuss faith schools, selective schools, etc. Several people have responded,. I, for one, questioned the concept of 'schooling' per se. What's your position?


I believe that the selection of children for schools on the basis of religion, race, class, bank balance is wrong and counter productive for society's greater good. I abhor the commodification of education.

I think it is hypocrisy or at least inconsistency from Dawkins et al to draw attention to one aspect of selection and remain silent on others.

I went to a faith school growing up in Ireland. This is quite different to the faith school system in England in many ways as there is a huge tradition of them and they are the dominant sector. This is a result of discrimination against Catholics in Ireland in the 1800's by British Rule, where Catholics were barred from education except that which proselytised them and the Church took a very savvy decision to educate children themselves thus ensuring its continuity and success. Government did not step into the breach partly due to power of the Church, partly due to the success of the educational system.

On an anecdotal level there was not one mention of God in chemistry, physics, biology, maths etc all the core subjects. RE was not taught beyond 12.


June 8th, 2011, 12:19 am
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I also attended Catholic schools (in Liverpool, 1950s-60s), Lots of Irish teachers, priests nuns etc; I have to agree there was no mention of religious doctrine in science or history classes. We had an excellent maths & physics teacher, a Jesuit, who was a fanatical and rather vicious bastard in many ways, but when he was teaching science, he just taught the science.


June 8th, 2011, 2:21 am
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thundril wrote:
We had an excellent maths & physics teacher, a Jesuit, who was a fanatical and rather vicious bastard in many ways, but when he was teaching science, he just taught the science.


An aside: A friend recently found himself at the same dinner table as the Vatican astronomer, Brother Guy Consolmagno, SJ. He took the opportunity to ask him how he reconciled his religious beliefs with his scientific/astronomical studies. Consolmagno's reply was to the effect that one must never let one's intellectual integrity be subverted by doctrine.

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June 8th, 2011, 11:07 am
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