Is it good to see Barbie...um truly reflect diversity?

[Marian]

Latest post of the previous page:

Thanks Val. I can see from her post (and yours) that you speak the truth about Fia. Can we carbon-copy her?

[Alan H]

Can we carbon-copy her?

Possibly. But have you seen the colour of her hair?

[Marian]

How about hot pink?

[Paolo]

And don't get me started on the (non red ) burkha, except to thank Paulo for his far politer explanation than I managed

No need to thank me - I would have said what you originally did if someone had already said it politely!

[Fia]

Alan H
But have you seen the colour of her hair?

And just what's wrong with a bit of natural henna then? I'd love hot pink hair if it wasn't such a faff....

Marian
Out of curiosity, do you see your influence in their behaviours/thought processes now?

Sure do with the eldest (nearly 19) who has a wholly individual and eclectic way of dressing, also refuses scales in her house, and seems far more mature and comfortable in her own gorgeous skin than many of her contempories. We still talk, loads, which is very gratifying. She even sends her uni essays to me for proofreading and comments - I'm learning so much about midwifery it's grand!
The youngest (nearly 14) is also comfortable in her gorgeous skin too, and friends of hers have told me she's always the first one to support her friends and tells them to be themselves. Both daughters friends pop by and talk to me - must be the masturbation chats over dinner! - so hopefully I've got something right

And I'd just like to say how lovely it is to be given so many psycholigcal strokes. Thank you. All I'm trying to do is to be the very best I can - for myself, my family, my friends and my community. Humanism in action I call it

[Marian]

And just what's wrong with a bit of natural henna then? I'd love hot pink hair if it wasn't such a faff....

We found this spray-on red hair colouring at the local costume shop; what a lot of fun that was! It stayed on for weeks.

Sure do with the eldest (nearly 19) who has a wholly individual and eclectic way of dressing, also refuses scales in her house, and seems far more mature and comfortable in her own gorgeous skin than many of her contempories. We still talk, loads, which is very gratifying. She even sends her uni essays to me for proofreading and comments - I'm learning so much about midwifery it's grand!
The youngest (nearly 14) is also comfortable in her gorgeous skin too, and friends of hers have told me she's always the first one to support her friends and tells them to be themselves. Both daughters friends pop by and talk to me - must be the masturbation chats over dinner! - so hopefully I've got something right

Masturbation chats! Would that include technique and potential extra machinery, if necessary?
I'm so happy that you guys chat and they clearly have taken what you've taught them to heart. I would find that [secretly]very gratifying! It's like a positive feedback loop. I only have one question at this point and I think I asked it before: Will you adopt me?

And I'd just like to say how lovely it is to be given so many psycholigcal strokes. Thank you. All I'm trying to do is to be the very best I can - for myself, my family, my friends and my community. Humanism in action I call it

You are welcome!

[Maria Mac]

Maria, it saddens me to hear you say you feel defeated about the body image issue re: Barbie. My social justice antennae stands on end when I think about the influence Barbie has had on millions of little girls and quite often how those same little girls will fall prey to eating disorders. It's absolutely torturous what women (and some men) do to themselves to attain an impossible image. Graphic images! Warning! http://www.2medusa.com/2008/09/pro-ana- ... od-as.html

I know about what some women go through to achieve that look. I'm just not convinced that Barbie has as much to do with it as you suggest I'd concede that she's part of the whole culture that encourages that stuff but I think it's the real life role models who do the most harm. Millions of girls play with Barbie and come through unscathed. My daughter loved her Barbies and has never given a shit about body image.

[Marian]

I know about what some women go through to achieve that look. I'm just not convinced that Barbie has as much to do with it as you suggest I'd concede that she's part of the whole culture that encourages that stuff but I think it's the real life role models who do the most harm. Millions of girls play with Barbie and come through unscathed. My daughter loved her Barbies and has never given a shit about body image.

I agree she is part of the whole sick culture and we need to do a repair job that addresses the whole kit and kaboodle. Yes, the real life models are worse.
I would suggest that your daughter not caring about body image has more to do with the good sense you've taught her than playing with Barbie.

[Maria Mac]

Sorry to bump this one up but as it was part of the inspiration for my latest blog, I thought I'd post a link to here. It's only fair.

Bugger the burkha

[jaywhat]

Wasn't it a major Barbie anniversay yesterday?

[Fia]

Major Barbie? Don't think I've seen that version

Good blog post, Maria

[Maria Mac]

Interesting article: Muslim women talking about hijab and why they stopped wearing it.

http://www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/a/3676/

[Johnnywas]

theres nothing wrong with wearing a burqa. all societies have informal codes about what constitutes appropriate dress and it varies from place to place.

it is however important that women are not coerced by their families into wearing clothes that they personally are uncomfortable with. there is a serious task here for women's support groups and networks across the world.

but it is also important that we don't allow governnments to dictate dress to women. especially if hunmanism and secularism are being used as an excuse for racism. and that is what is happening in france

we should be outraged that our traditions are being used as a fig leaf for an assault on the human rights of muslim women

[Alan C.]

Johnnywas"]theres nothing wrong with wearing a burqa. all societies have informal codes about what constitutes appropriate dress and it varies from place to place.

It's not about the burqa (IMO) it's about wearing a mask in public, I as a white male would not be allowed into banks , shops etc, wearing a mask and nor should anybody.

it is however important that women are not coerced by their families into wearing clothes that they personally are uncomfortable with. there is a serious task here for women's support groups and networks across the world.

The silence from the "feminists" of the world is deafening

but it is also important that we don't allow governnments (sic) to dictate dress to women. especially if hunmanism (sic) and secularism are being used as an excuse for racism. and that is what is happening in france (sic)

we should be outraged that our traditions are being used as a fig leaf for an assault on the human rights of muslim (sic) women

Will you please explain to me why you think it's OK for a person to to go about their daily life enclosed in a "tent" with a slit for the eyes, but I can't enter public buildings wearing a balaclava? Eh!

it is also important that we don't allow governnments (sic) to dictate dress to women. especially if hunmanism (sic) and secularism are being used as an excuse for racism. and that is what is happening in france (sic)

Care to expand on that? What is this race of people that wear masks?
Oh and it's not governments that are getting pissed off, it's normal rational folk like myself.

In Saudi Arabia in a sandstorm the burqa is probably a good idea............In Birmingham or Bradford with 30%c probably not.

we should be outraged that our traditions are being used as a fig leaf for an assault on the human rights of muslim women

Don't you get it? I am on side with "Muslim" women.

[Maria Mac]

Johnnywas"]theres nothing wrong with wearing a burqa. all societies have informal codes about what constitutes appropriate dress and it varies from place to place.

It's not about the burqa (IMO) it's about wearing a mask in public, I as a white male would not be allowed into banks , shops etc, wearing a mask and nor should anybody.

(snip)

Will you please explain to me why you think it's OK for a person to to go about their daily life enclosed in a "tent" with a slit for the eyes, but I can't enter public buildings wearing a balaclava? Eh!

We should be wary of confusing what the law dictates or forbids and what the owners of buildings allow and don't allow. I haven't really followed what's going on in France and can't be bothered to check buy my understanding is that Sarkozy wants to ban the burqa from being worn anywhere in public, including the street. This, in my opinion, is an illiberal step too far at the moment. There needs to be very good reasons for legislating this.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it up to the banks (shops, schools, airports, etc) themselves what people may or may not wear on their premises? I think it is perfectly reasonable for all such places to exclude anyone who hides their face. It's a simply a matter of having the courage to do it.

[Johnnywas]

It's not about the burqa (IMO) it's about wearing a mask in public, I as a white male would not be allowed into banks , shops etc, wearing a mask and nor should anybody

if banks have a serious worry about 'burqa crime' they can prevent women with burqas from entering the establishment. however if someone intended to rob a bank using a burqa as a guise they would put a burqa outside the bank not while they were going about their everyday business

The silence from the "feminists" of the world is deafening

wearing a burqua isn't a feminist issue (any more than its a humanist issue). the issue is about the choices available to women.

there are lots of feminists in the middle east , particularly in Iran. where young women have refused to wear traditional dress on the basis that it is prescribed.

however they have other priorities other than dress (divorce, right to choose, equal rights)

Salma Yaqoob is a feminist and this is what she has said

"I certainly wouldn't want to wear it myself, but then to take it to a step where they are going to ban it because I feel uncomfortable with it is something I would say is very un-British because the British way of life is 'live and let live', freedom of speech, freedom of worship," she said.As long as they are not imposing it on anybody else they should have the right to wear it."

[Maria Mac]

Salma Yaqoob is a feminist

What makes you say that?

[Johnnywas]

Maria

that is a good question.

Salma says shes a feminist here.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life ... 062769.ece

However I agree that she doesn't use the term often (and yes its debatable given her silence on issues such as abortion).

My point was that the issue of Burqas is best addressed within Communities. Salma has been clear both that traditional dress is sometimes forced on women in traditional families and that burqas should not be forced on women.

but let me return to the point. (which is not meant to be a personal attack on any one in this forum).

the issue of the Burqa is crossing Europe. many French politicians argue that the Burqa should be banned (as it has been in Belgium) and one of the arguments they use is that this is because france is a 'secular' country.

but this is a pretext - the fact is that many of the same politicians (who are largely on the right of French politics) are also arguing that Turkey shouldn't be in the EU because the EU is culturally Christian.

to the extent that secularism is under threat in france it is not from the tiny number of muslim women who wear the burqa in public. the threat to the secular state is from the far right. who want to use the powers of Government to grab headlines which court the racist vote

in Britain humanists have a proud tradition. and its not about imposing dress codes on the population. its about promoting tolerance and attacking racism in all its forms

[Maria Mac]

Thanks, for that link, johnny.

At university I felt angry at the pressure on women relating to their appearance, which seemed to do with how men viewed you. I wore a headscarf and the jilbab, and was the only woman there to do so. For me it was to do with my feminism.

As far as I'm concerned, nobody who chooses to wear hijab is a feminist, though I suppose it's possible to be a kind of 'relative feminist' when you subscribe to and practise a world view that oppresses women, as most religions do. It infuriates me that a woman who covers up even in roasting temperatures claims it's "to do with" her feminism. What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Of course one should feel "angry at the pressure on women relating to their appearance" but, in this country, nobody forces women to wear what they don't want to wear and covering up from head to foot has no more do with feminism than do short skirts and high heels; the bottom line is that both these dress codes are determined by men's dicks.

I don't disagree with what you say about the humanist tradition and tolerance but every society - even the most liberal - sets a limit on what it will tolerate and where the limit is set will depend on how societies have developed historically. I wouldn't be in favour legislating against the burqa in this country - indeed, I think it would be impossible to do so. I am less sure how I feel about other countries banning it. I sympathise with those countries who are anxious about the threat to their secular traditions caused by the rise of political islamism, of which the adoption of the niqab/burqa is a symbol. It seems to me that banning the burqa may be illiberal but it doesn't actually hurt anyone and, if it demonstrates that any rise in islamism - which does hurt people - won't be tolerated, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

I wouldn't call the mere banning face veils in public 'imposing a dress code', by the way.

[Johnnywas]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ympics2008

...We all wear the kind of clothes we wear partly because of social pressure - and our own culture still says, for example, that it is more acceptable, and less sexual, for men to walk down the street topless than it is for women. Many patriarchal religions do indeed hold highly disturbing views about women, which should be challenged, but we should confront those ideas via education and debate, not by forcing young women to reveal parts of their bodies they would rather keep covered. If women say that they want to wear a headscarf, I'm afraid we have to take them at their word. What could be more anti-feminist than telling women that they don't really know what they think?

[Maria Mac]

You should use the quote tags, Johnny (highlight the text and click on the quote button above the text box). I've edited your post to add it because originally it looked like the quote was your own.

In any event, it's a non-sequitur. Nobody is telling hijab-wearing women that "they don't really know what they think". The reason I hate women who choose to wear the hijab when they don't have to is because it is a symbol of women's oppression and an insult to all of us who have spent our lives fighting this.