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The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

Any topics that are primarily about humanism or other non-religious life stances fit in here.
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Nick
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#141 Post by Nick » January 20th, 2009, 10:40 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Nice one, Alan! How about this:

"Catholicism is just a load of Papal Bull."


Too specific, of course, so how about....


"Dogma is not for Life, just for Christians."

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Paolo
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#142 Post by Paolo » January 20th, 2009, 11:17 pm

Here's my suggestion:
"Faith or thought - the choice is yours"

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Alan H
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#143 Post by Alan H » January 21st, 2009, 12:49 am

Just in case anyone had expected the ASA to adjudicate on the bus adverts today (their adjudications are always published on Wednesday), they'll have to wait a bit longer [---][/---] there's nothing in today's list. I suspect it'll be a few weeks before they adjudicate, although they may well just reject it out of hand. If they do, the BHA would still be told about it.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

Gottard
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Joined: October 3rd, 2008, 3:11 pm

Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#144 Post by Gottard » January 21st, 2009, 11:44 am

And what about this:
The Earth is fraught with many beliefs/religions. Humanist Ethics walks the unique path of science.
P.S.:I've caught a cold with fever.
The only thing I fear of death is regret if I couldn’t complete my learning experience

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Alan H
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#145 Post by Alan H » January 21st, 2009, 12:58 pm

How about 'We stand up for humanity'? Oh! Christian Aid thought of it first...
********************************************************************************
Christian Aid's humanist-sounding slogan :: Alex Singleton
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/alex_singl ... ing_slogan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wonder what George Duffield, the 19th century minister who wrote the hymn "Stand up, stand up for Jesus", would make of Christian Aid?

Image

Just how Christian is Christian Aid's banner?

The British development organisation, despite its Christian-sounding name, has chosen to fly a humanist-sounding banner outside its London headquarters that says: "We stand up for humanity". Not sure it fits with the brand name, chaps.

[Retrieved: Wed Jan 21 2009 12:57:33 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)]

###################
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan C.
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 3:35 pm

Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#146 Post by Alan C. » January 21st, 2009, 5:07 pm

Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Alan H
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#147 Post by Alan H » January 21st, 2009, 5:34 pm

Damn! I was wrong!
********************************************************************************
Atheist bus ad campaign not in breach of advertising code
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/news/news/200 ... g+code.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Atheist bus ad campaign is not in breach of the Advertising Code

21 January 2009

The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) has concluded that the “There’s probably no God” bus ad campaign by the British Humanist Association is not in breach of the advertising code. The ASA will therefore not launch an investigation and the case is now closed.

The ASA carefully assessed the 326 complaints it received. Some complained that the ad was offensive and denigratory to people of faith. Others challenged whether the ad was misleading because the advertiser would not be able to substantiate its claim that God “probably” does not exist.

The ASA Council concluded that the ad was an expression of the advertiser’s opinion and that the claims in it were not capable of objective substantiation. Although the ASA acknowledges that the content of the ad would be at odds with the beliefs of many, it concluded that it was unlikely to mislead or to cause serious or widespread offence.

[Retrieved: Wed Jan 21 2009 17:35:15 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)]

###################
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan C.
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Joined: July 4th, 2007, 3:35 pm

Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#148 Post by Alan C. » January 21st, 2009, 5:40 pm

Damn! I was wrong!
Not like you Alan! That's my area of expertise.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

tubataxidriver
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Joined: August 3rd, 2007, 10:39 pm

Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#149 Post by tubataxidriver » January 21st, 2009, 6:27 pm

Great news. However, I was hoping that once this was established we could begin to have a go at some of the rather iffy advertising of the extremist religious lobby:
The ASA Council concluded that the ad was an expression of the advertiser’s opinion and that the claims in it were not capable of objective substantiation. Although the ASA acknowledges that the content of the ad would be at odds with the beliefs of many, it concluded that it was unlikely to mislead or to cause serious or widespread offence.
This means that anyone expressing an opinion about someting that is not capable of objective substantiation can get away with any old nonsense. But, if they make any statements that are capable of objective substantiation, such as claims about scientific issues, then they might be fair game.

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Alan H
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#150 Post by Alan H » January 21st, 2009, 6:30 pm

I think I have mentioned it before (on the ASA thread) that I'm not very clear about what makes a statement something factual, rather than just the opinion of the advertiser. Obviously, if an ad says 'we think this is the best lager in the world', then it is clearly their opinion, but other cases are not so clear.
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

frogbox
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#151 Post by frogbox » January 21st, 2009, 8:49 pm

In that case if it's a matter of opinion that counts, couldn't the next slogan be more direct. "We believe there's no god" rather than "probably". Most people I know think the ads are quite good, even funny, but wonder what sort of atheist would say "probably".

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Paolo
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#152 Post by Paolo » January 22nd, 2009, 9:47 am

frogbox wrote:...couldn't the next slogan be more direct. "We believe there's no god" rather than "probably".
Not sure if this is just being pedantic or raising an important semantic point (Jaywhat to advise!), but a proposition saying "We believe there is no god" makes our position faith based (we believe that there is no god) and thus it puts the onus on us to prove it if challenged, whereas if we say that "We do not believe in a god" our position is not faith-based (we lack belief in a god) and thus the onus of proof remains with those who do believe.

This may sound minor, but I personally do not agree with the first statement and I wholeheartedly agree with the second.

frogbox
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#153 Post by frogbox » January 22nd, 2009, 10:15 am

That's a valid point and totally makes sense. What I was thinking was that a more definite statement maybe possible if it's considered an opinion. The word probably annoys a lot of people I know and it gives arguments to the religous. I think the campaign was a positive first step but I would like to see something a little more direct next time.

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Paolo
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#154 Post by Paolo » January 22nd, 2009, 11:54 am

I do agree. "Probably" can mean what people want it to - to us it may mean "almost completely certainly", to believers it implies "not certain at all".

I think that denying god is a bit of a red herring (after all, we might as well be denying fairies, Santa or unicorns), we'd be better off encouraging people to use evidence instead of belief as a way of understanding the world, or at least persuading people to put more faith in each other than in some made-up entity.

How about:
"If there's no god then you believe in nothing, we believe what's real"
"Believe in people, at least they're real"
"If we believed in each other, we wouldn't need a god"
"You only get one life - live it well"
"The Bible is certainly wrong in places, so how can it all be true?"
"There are thousands of gods - why should just one exist?" (check out http://www.godchecker.com/)

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Alan C.
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#155 Post by Alan C. » January 22nd, 2009, 12:14 pm

The religious like to use bible quotes in their ads, I don't think they can be challenged legally because they are quoting the bible, so why not play them at their own game? I'd like to see some of these plastered on buses.

Hate your mother and your father. Luke 14:26.

It will make you happy to dash your little ones against a stone. Psalm 137:9.

Eat the flesh of your sons and daughters. Leviticus 26:29.

Kill anyone who tells a lie, Deuteronomy 19:18/19.

Kill anyone who works on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2.

Kill all mediums by stoning. Leviticus 20:27. (I like this one)

Kill a rebelious son by stoning. Deuteronomy 21:18/21.

Kill anyone who utters a curse by stoning. Leviticus 24:14/16.

The Christian right wouldn't be able to complain about bible quotes, would they?
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

peterangus
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#156 Post by peterangus » January 22nd, 2009, 1:28 pm

The purpose of a brief slogan is to start a debate, not to clinch it.
Peter Angus

tubataxidriver
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#157 Post by tubataxidriver » January 22nd, 2009, 5:53 pm

Remember, the purpose of the bus adverts is to enlighten members of the general public and to encourage them to think for themselves. The "probably is no god" statement does just that, and it crucially allows the reader to align themselves and their own thinking with the statement.

Any wording that implies or says "We believe ...", "We think ...", "Atheists think ..." in my view creates a more exclusive "Us versus You" situation, which we do not want. The reader might quite naturally feel that they are "outside the club" and are the ones being attacked. As humanists/atheists etc. we do not need to re-state or reaffirm our approach to life and thought. But it is important that we encourage more people from the general public to ask themselves these questions. Hence it is crucial that we do not create any perception that there are any barriers, clubs, cliques, etc.

Nick
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#158 Post by Nick » January 23rd, 2009, 12:00 am

No-one will ever have their mind changed by a simple slogan. But that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile. Far from it. IMO, the key thing is to shift the default reponse of those who are already atheist or agnostic.

A couple of examples. In discussion with a business colleague and friend, I asked him what he had put on his last census return. "C of E" he replied.

"Do you really believe all that stuff?"

"Well, of course not"

It's just that that is what he had always put, since he was a kid. It was as much to make sure he wasn't buried as a catholic or muslim, but 'harmlessly' as C of E, If we can jolt those sort of people to respond more honestly to such questions, then progress will be made.

Likewise, in discussion with a neighbour and friend of 37 years standing (Ouch! That makes me feel old) she interjected to tell me that her (same sex) partner "was a catholic". On the one hand, I was touched that she (also pretty much an atheist) had warned me, to make sure I didn't say something I might regret. She had a pretty firm grasp of my opinion of such things, and her warning was given out of friendship, as she knows what I'm like! As it happens, I was not about to 'insult' catholicism, and was very comfortable to continue with my train of thought (though I can't remember what it was). But I was a little startled, too. How come she was concerned that I shouldn't upset her partner, or cause a rift or some such thing, when the leader of her 'faith' condemns their relationship, totally and utterly, as a grievous sin (maybe even a mortal one). I was too startled to comment at the time (and it's probably better, for the sake of our friendship, that I didn't) but it does strike me as odd!

I hope the bus campaign will loosen the ties of childhood allegiances, and encourage more people to be honest about their beliefs when questioned, and to be less meek when ministers of religion jump in to provide consolation or opinions. Many people are embarrassed by such things, but do not have the confidence to walk way, but just submit. If we can nudge such people, then the campaign will have been a success.

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Alan H
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Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#159 Post by Alan H » January 23rd, 2009, 12:28 am

Alan C. wrote:The religious like to use bible quotes in their ads, I don't think they can be challenged legally because they are quoting the bible, so why not play them at their own game? I'd like to see some of these plastered on buses.

Hate your mother and your father. Luke 14:26.

It will make you happy to dash your little ones against a stone. Psalm 137:9.

Eat the flesh of your sons and daughters. Leviticus 26:29.

Kill anyone who tells a lie, Deuteronomy 19:18/19.

Kill anyone who works on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2.

Kill all mediums by stoning. Leviticus 20:27. (I like this one)

Kill a rebelious son by stoning. Deuteronomy 21:18/21.

Kill anyone who utters a curse by stoning. Leviticus 24:14/16.

The Christian right wouldn't be able to complain about bible quotes, would they?
I like the way you think! :laughter:
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
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Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#160 Post by Alan H » January 23rd, 2009, 12:42 pm

********************************************************************************
British Humanist Association welcomes “common-sense” decision on atheist bus adverts
http://www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/206
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

British Humanist Association welcomes “common-sense” decision on atheist bus adverts

The British Humanist Association (BHA) today welcomes the decision by the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) not to launch an investigation into the atheist bus adverts.

Hanne Stinson, BHA Chief Executive, said, ‘The ASA has accepted that the adverts are not offensive to most people and has made the common-sense decision not to attempt to decide whether gods exist or not.’

She continued, ‘The adverts were never intended to offend anyone, but we have become concerned about suggestions from a number of people that the non-religious should not be allowed to advertise their beliefs in this way. We were successful in our campaign to abolish the blasphemy laws last year but it is clear that we must still keep fighting for the fundamental right to freedom of expression, while there are those who would wish to have us gagged.’

[Retrieved: Fri Jan 23 2009 12:40:12 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)]

###################
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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Alan H
Posts: 24067
Joined: July 3rd, 2007, 10:26 pm

Re: The Atheist Bus Campaign - is it a good use of money?

#161 Post by Alan H » January 24th, 2009, 12:50 pm

The Christian Voice response:
********************************************************************************
Christian Voice: Press Release
http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/Press/press122.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ASA SAYS 'NO GOD' BUS CLAIM CAN'T BE PROVED

Dated 21st January 2009

The Advertising Standards Authority has ruled that the humanists behind the newly-launched bus advertisement which claims there is 'probably no God' can't substantiate their claims.

The ad, the brainchild of comedy writer Ariane Sherine, says: 'There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life'.

But Stephen Green, National Director of Christian Voice, and 325 others, complained to the Advertising Standards Authority. Many complaints said the ads were offensive. Stephen Green and others said the advertisements broke the ASA's codes on substantiation and truthfulness.

The ASA website says: 'Advertisements are not allowed to mislead consumers. This means that advertisers must hold evidence to prove the claims they make about their products or services before an ad appears.'

But in a ruling today, the ASA says the claim that there is probably no God is 'not capable of objective substantiation'. It says further that the complaints were not 'serious' or 'widespread' enough.

Stephen Green said today:

'If the ASA had thought the humanists could provide evidence for their claim, they would have asked them for it. As they know there is no evidence for the proposition that 'there is probably no God', they have let their secularist friends off the hook. 'I debated this issue secularists five times in recent days, and despite repeated challenges, they could not once come up with anything to back up their claim that there is 'probably no God'.

'The ASA have finessed Code 7.1, which says a ad should not mislead or be likely to mislead, ruling it would not be likely to mislead, so avoiding the thornier question of whether it actually does mislead. Which it does.

'On 'taste and decency', the ASA have simply taken a subjective decision to dismiss the complaints of offensiveness. On planet ASA, complaints from people of faith are not given the same weight as those from secularists. But what do you expect when the ASA Council is appointed and run by a campaigning homosexual, Chris, Lord, Smith of Finsbury?'

Last year the ASA ruled against Sandown Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster when the church published an advertisement 'The Word of God against Sodomy' against Belfast Gay Pride. That ad, decided the ASA, breached its code on decency (offensiveness) after receiving just 4 complaints. But they allowed that the ad was a legitimate expression of opinion when dismissing another part of the complaint.

Last week, it ruled against an advertorial Christian Voice placed in the New Statesman, after just one solitary complaint that a prediction that every Government initiative on teenage sexuality would increase teenage infertility could not be substantiated.

Stephen Green commented: 'The ASA upholds or breaks its rules as it goes along. It all depends on who is being complained about. They get 326 complaints and decide the bus ads were not causing serious or widespread offence. They get a mere 4, and say Sandown's ad was. They allow Sandown to express an opinion, but not Christian Voice. They excuse the secularists from the need to provide evidence for a categorical statement, claiming it is impossible to do, but they say Christian Voice needs hard evidence for a future prediction, which really is impossible.

'We always knew the ASA was just another tool of the politically-correct secularist establishment, but here's the proof. Their ruling is a good example of how the deck is stacked against Christians today, and the Church needs to wake up to the anti-Christian agenda right now. The good news is we now know that when the secularists decided to say: "There is probably no God", they had no reason for making that absurd claim, and time has not helped them come up with one. The bad news is that if Christians don't start standing up for their Faith and their Saviour soon, we shall see religious liberties trampled on, and the secularists will take us further down the road to their hell on earth.'

NOTES for Editors:

The CAP Code, which the ASA administers, says:

'SUBSTANTIATION

'3.1 Before distributing or submitting a marketing communication for publication, marketers must hold documentary evidence to prove all claims, whether direct or implied, that are capable of objective substantiation.

'Relevant evidence should be sent without delay if requested by the ASA or CAP. The adequacy of evidence will be judged on whether it supports both the detailed claims and the overall impression created by the marketing communication.'

DECENCY

'5.1 Marketing communications should contain nothing that is likely to cause serious or widespread offence. ...'

'TRUTHFULNESS

'7.1 No marketing communication should mislead, or be likely to mislead, by inaccuracy, ambiguity, exaggeration, omission or otherwise.'

[Retrieved: Sat Jan 24 2009 12:49:02 GMT+0000 (GMT Standard Time)]

###################
Alan Henness

There are three fundamental questions for anyone advocating Brexit:

1. What, precisely, are the significant and tangible benefits of leaving the EU?
2. What damage to the UK and its citizens is an acceptable price to pay for those benefits?
3. Which ruling of the ECJ is most persuasive of the need to leave its jurisdiction?

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