non religious alternatives..

[prawnjoe]

Hi there, first post so hopefully its not in the wrong place.

I have a 3yr old daughter and her mother is looking to get her started going to the first step of the girl guides called Rainbows The programme sounds great other than the "Rainbow promise" the kids are asked to make which is,

I promise that I will do my best to love my God and be kind and helpful

They are keen to point out that

A girl makes her Promise when she feels ready, and is not prevented from participating in guiding activities if she has not done so.

But they do reward girls who make the promise with a 'promise party' so what 3-4yrs old girl would not want to?

I find the entire thing creepy and unnecessary, so I guess my long winded question is regarding any similar alternatives that she can go to? Surely there is an alternative where kids aren't encouraged to believe in God? Preferably one where boys and girls are mixed. I just cant seem to find one.

I am in Ayrshire, Scotland if that helps.

[getreal]

Hi! I'm just down the road from you then! (OK so it could be up the road).
Try this
http://www.woodcraft.org.uk/

I think there is a group in the West end of Glasgow (there would be, wouldn't there!)

[Dave B]

I Googled them as well, looks pretty good.

I checked because I had a nagging memory that, at one time, they were heavily associated with the socialist movement, very left wing. But it looks as though they are a little more establishment now, but not religiously so.

Hope there is one nearby to you prawnjoe.

[Nick]

Maybe it's just me, but I find the Woodcraft Folk's material extremely creepy. It sounds more like the extreme youth wing of the Red Brigades....

[Dave B]

Maybe it's just me, but I find the Woodcraft Folk's material extremely creepy. It sounds more like the extreme youth wing of the Red Brigades....

You picked that up? I am not so sensitive to that sort of thing I admit, and with Wiki one never knows the motives of the article author - no doubt it was a Woodcraft supporter.

But I would rather that than a religious basis if it were a kid of mine. I would gently monitor whatever was taught in any case.

[Fia]

Maybe it's just me, but I find the Woodcraft Folk's material extremely creepy. It sounds more like the extreme youth wing of the Red Brigades....

Care to explain that Nick? What is wrong with

The Woodcraft Folk is an educational movement for children and young people, which aims to develop self confidence and activity in society, with the aim of building a world based on equality, friendship, peace and co-operation.

?
No religion, engendering our offspring with self confidence and a basis for them to make their world better, rather than relying on superstition. It's the fall-back of the religious who can't think of anything better to throw at us atheists/humanists/freethinkers than "look at Stalin".

Prawnjoe: I understand your dilemma. As a child in the middle of the last century the local guide movement provided me with many things I would never have experienced otherwise. Team spirit, survival skills, enduring friendships. I endured the religious crap. But when it came to my daughters, there wasn't a Woodcraft group, and i didn't have the time to set one up, so I volunteered to help with the brownies and guides. All was well until the District Commissioner discovered I was changing one word of taps, from "god is nigh" to "peace is nigh". The girls found my approach interesting as i fully explained why I was doing it, we had some very interesting conversations. But it was made clear my approach was not welcome.

So with no Woodcraft group with my daughters we did (and still do it) it ourselves. We trekked the hills with maps and compasses, built fires, cooked and camped out usually with a myriad of others in tow. Had great conversations and songs over the campfire. Visited the housebound in our community, talked with and shopped and cleaned for them. So I'd either recommend the Woodcrafters or DIY...

Edited to say: Where are my manners? prawnjoe

[prawnjoe]

I don't know what to do to be honest. I mean I don't want her excluded from having fun and socialising because of my opinion on these things.

These things would be great for her confidence and her mother and I are both atheists so she will have us countering anything she gets thrown at her in the future. It just frustrates me that I seemingly have no choice in the matter. Either she is excluded and weird or she does it until she is old enough to shun it.

I went to a strict roman catholic primary and secondary school and it was pretty bad. I was banned from R.E. classes and made to stand outside during morning mass, often in the rain, but I know that something like that couldn't happen these days so maybe I should just take the approach with the minimal religious propaganda and hope that she is smart enough to see through it when she is older.

I don't mind her learning about religion, in fact I would encourage it, but this religion as standard practice offends me!

Looking into the woodcraft thing, will let you guys know what I think.

[Manuel]

Re Woodcraft, I'm not sure I'd want to introduce my kids to a group that appear so politically motivated. And that's coming from an atheist whose boy of seven attends Beavers, like a younger cub scouts, I think it's the boys 'Rainbows'.

I promise to do my best
To be kind and helpful
And to love God.

That's their promise. My boy thinks it's weird that they have to say it, but enjoys all the games and the social aspect. The 'promise' aside, the religious aspect appears to be completely non invasive, even non-existent so I don't worry despite the obvious hypocrisy.

That Woodcraft website's political motives seem a little strong to let my kids loose with them unsupervised personally. I guess non-religious and apolitical is the gold standard but personally I find Beavers religious motives (I honestly struggle to find any) so watered down not to have been an issue for me. I guess this may differ from group to group around the UK depending on who attends.

[Alan H]

Hi! I'm just down the road from you then! (OK so it could be up the road).

Or, in Ayrshire, both at the same time?

[Nick]

Maybe it's just me, but I find the Woodcraft Folk's material extremely creepy. It sounds more like the extreme youth wing of the Red Brigades....

Care to explain that Nick? What is wrong with

The Woodcraft Folk is an educational movement for children and young people, which aims to develop self confidence and activity in society, with the aim of building a world based on equality, friendship, peace and co-operation.

?
No religion, engendering our offspring with self confidence and a basis for them to make their world better, rather than relying on superstition. It's the fall-back of the religious who can't think of anything better to throw at us atheists/humanists/freethinkers than "look at Stalin".

I am very suspicious of anything which calls itself an "educational movement". And what, pray, is actually meant by "equality"? In what way can a 4 year old comprehend "peace", and whether instead maybe force is sometimes required to ensure such "peace"? And couldn't co-operation also be called "teamwork"? Since when did giving kids a good time depend on the groups bank account being with the Co-op? The one thing missing seems to be any running about! And it is imbued with a nausiating "everone must win prizes" egalitarianism, and devoid of anything practical; just peacenik facepainting and collectives, recommending links with CND and Greenpeace. Even the system to get news to parents is called a collective, kit is called "worker support resources" and Red Indian night (what's that all about?) comes with an anti-racism warning.

WHen I was in the scouts (admittedly I was well over 4 by then ) we played British Bulldogs, Indoor Hockey, Wide-games and football. We went camping and canoeing. We baked bread on a open fire, we made pancakes and learnt elementary first aid. We were also taught to take care of the weak, to treat others with respect and any scout as a brother. We all thought the church parades were a complete waste of time (except for carrying the flag) and couldn't wait for it to be over. Religion was never part of the plan as far as any of the lads were concerned, and was certainly not used as a justification by the adults. Yes, it would be nice if god played no part in scouting, but I think scouting is preferable to the young socialists.

Mind you, they do state that "Small parachutes are available for Woodchips groups at under £100."

Maybe we are both over-reacting, but it certainly gives me the heebie-jeebies.

ETA: Cross posted with Manuel, whose response is much better than mine

[prawnjoe]

Re Woodcraft, I'm not sure I'd want to introduce my kids to a group that appear so politically motivated. And that's coming from an atheist whose boy of seven attends Beavers, like a younger cub scouts, I think it's the boys 'Rainbows'.

I promise to do my best
To be kind and helpful
And to love God.

That's their promise. My boy thinks it's weird that they have to say it, but enjoys all the games and the social aspect. The 'promise' aside, the religious aspect appears to be completely non invasive, even non-existent so I don't worry despite the obvious hypocrisy.

That Woodcraft website's political motives seem a little strong to let my kids loose with them unsupervised personally. I guess non-religious and apolitical is the gold standard but personally I find Beavers religious motives (I honestly struggle to find any) so watered down not to have been an issue for me. I guess this may differ from group to group around the UK depending on who attends.

That's the decision I think I've arrived at. Her gran knows the woman who runs the rainbows (her gran runs an after school care service) and apparently thought it was hilarious that I was worried about it. There seems to be the 'promise' and that's it. No other mention of god at all and no involvement with the local parish or anything.

Just to be clear, when I was in the cubs we had prayer circles and the local priest would come around regularly to make sure we were being good boys. We even went to confession once. This has made very distrusting of the whole organisiation. It got worse when we got to the scouts, but that's another story.

I reckon the good far outweighs any bad. Its just hypocritical and pointless buy Mya (my daughter) doesn't know or care at this point so I will ease off the throttle and keep a very close eye on the whole thing.

I, also feel a bit creeped out by woodcraft. Ideally I want her to make her own mind up about political motivation just the same way as religious motivation.

Thanks for the chat folks. I intend to stick around on here.

OK.....now onto worrying about a school.......wish me luck!

[Alan C.]

prawnjoe
There seems to be the 'promise' and that's it. No other mention of god at all and no involvement with the local parish or anything.

Ugh!

I promise to do my best
To be kind and helpful
And to love God.

Makes me wonder why the don't change it to say.........I promise to do my best
To be kind and helpful
And to love and respect my parents.

Would make much more sense.

[Dave B]

No other mention of god at all and no involvement with the local parish or anything.

Hope "parish" in this context means in the churchy sense, one hopes that local kids in organisations get involved with the community they live in, in a safe way of course.

Round here this is the only foil in public opinion against the suspicion that most kids are viewed with due to the nuisance and vandalism some cause. It only takes a few to do the damage, but it takes a great deal to undo it.

[lewist]

As I understand it, the Woodcraft Folk is the youth part of the Cooperative Movement. I don't feel it is any more political than are the Scout/ Guide movements with their strong Queen & Empire history. It is non religious and non sexist. I was always sorry - particularly as the child of a Cooperative Grocer - we didn't have one for my children.

[grammar king]

Welcome prawnjoe.

I was involved in the scouts for a long time and there was also a guide group based in the same (parish) centre. We had church parade every 3 months or so, we made the promise once in a while and said a prayer at the end. To be honest I had more problem with "do my duty to God and to the Queen" than any religious part, I could just ignore it. All the rest was camping, canoeing, hiking, playing different games, backwoods cooking, survival weekends, competitions, 2 trips to Texas and 1 to Holland, and much more. Admittedly most of that was in the Scouts rather than in the Beavers (more or less the boy's equivalent of Rainbows), but Beavers was fun too, and certainly wasn't a big thing about evangelising.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. As long as you can explain to your daughter why people say prayers, I think she'll be fine. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rainbow leader allowed her to just skip the line about God in the promise. Certainly the benefits outweigh the religious aspects, in my experience.

[Alan C.]

A minor breakthrough?
NOW NON-BELIEVERS CAN FALL IN WITH THE BB.

In a bid to halt falling numbers, leaders have signalled a desire to “broaden” its appeal.

Hopefuly falling numbers in all the other groups that bar Atheists will have the same effect.

[jaywhat]

I am sorry to hear the Woodcraft people getting called 'creepy' and being too left wing. How bad is left wing and what better organisation can you get than the co-operative movement with its ethical tradiing and especially ethical banking.

[Emma Woolgatherer]

I don't find anything creepy about the Woodcraft Folk. I agree with jaywhat: it's hard to find fault with the cooperative movement. (Hell, even the Conservative Party seems to like cooperatives these days!) And I agree with Lewist: it's no more political than the Scouts.

I do think the name "Woodcraft Folk" is far too twee, though.

Emma

[Nick]

I don't find anything creepy about the Woodcraft Folk. I agree with jaywhat: it's hard to find fault with the cooperative movement. (Hell, even the Conservative Party seems to like cooperatives these days!) And I agree with Lewist: it's no more political than the Scouts.

I do think the name "Woodcraft Folk" is far too twee, though.

Emma

Yes indeed. The name really is awful. And I have no objection if people wish to organise themselves on a co-operative basis, but it is not, and should not be, the only way of organising things. If we waited for co-ops before we could progress we would be very much the poorer.

As for it politics, I am amazed by the view that they are as political as each other. The Scout web-site doesn't even mention God or The Queen. It talks about personal development and adventure. It also mentions equality of opportunity(hence the uniform).

The Woodcraft Folk, OTOH, talk about world debt, child exploitation, conflict and peace, prejudice, water, fair trade, refugees and asylum. I'm not saying that kids should be shielded from such things, but it is much, much more overtly political than the scouts and guides and the advenure seems very hard to find.

BTW, I was amused to find that the acronym for the World ssociation for Girl Guides and Girl Scouts is...WAGGGS.

[Nick]

I am sorry to hear the Woodcraft people getting called 'creepy' and being too left wing. How bad is left wing and what better organisation can you get than the co-operative movement with its ethical tradiing and especially ethical banking.

I was a bit rushed when responding earlier. How bad is left wing? Well, it can be as bad as being right wing. Overall, Woodcraft Folk seem more intent on moulding the politics of their charges rather than giving them a fun (and constructive) time. Physical games seem particularly lacking. And kids can learn so much about life from such activities. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it's seeming absence from an organisation for kids is striking.