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In or out?

...on serious topics that don't fit anywhere else at present.
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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1401 Postby Alan H » March 20th, 2017, 5:35 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:
Sorry, Alan, I'm on my way to Berlin, so I'll have to let you work it out for a few days.
I have nothing to work out, Nick. The burden is on you.


I am under no obligation to teach you anything, Alan.
I never claimed you did, Nick. The burden of proof still lies with you - it can remain there if you like.

And my trip to Berlin was great, thanks :D
I hope you'd registered for an EHIC card before you left? Davis hasn't given them any thought at all yet.
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Nick
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Re: In or out?

#1402 Postby Nick » March 20th, 2017, 5:38 pm

Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:No, no we don't.


No customs at Dover? Last time I went through, they took my car apart! Who the hell were they if not customs?
No, Nick. I did not say that.
Huh? :shock: You implied there are no customs between Dover and Calais!! :rolleyes:


But what about Ireland, Nick?
That all depends on Brussels, doesn't it? They blew it when they had the chance.

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1403 Postby Alan H » March 20th, 2017, 5:44 pm

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:
No customs at Dover? Last time I went through, they took my car apart! Who the hell were they if not customs?
No, Nick. I did not say that.
Huh? :shock: You implied there are no customs between Dover and Calais!! :rolleyes:
No, Nick. No I didn't.


But what about Ireland, Nick?
That all depends on Brussels, doesn't it? They blew it when they had the chance.
What about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, Nick? What will be required there?
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1404 Postby Alan H » March 20th, 2017, 5:58 pm

Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1405 Postby Alan H » March 20th, 2017, 8:57 pm

Over-optimistic ministers manipulate the Brexit debate
It is just that you would rather be in the hands of statesmen. Seeing these ministers talk their way out of old promises leaves you with a sense of sinuous political skill but also smallness — of a trio pulling themselves up to their full height to look at the monumental work of exit straight in the ankles.
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1406 Postby Alan H » March 20th, 2017, 10:43 pm

Updated Wikipedia page on Brexit:

2017-03-20_22h39_56.png
2017-03-20_22h39_56.png (345.67 KiB) Viewed 91 times


It's been reverted of course, but not sure what was inaccurate...
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1407 Postby Alan H » March 21st, 2017, 12:56 am

Brexit will gum up government for years
One of the lesser known costs of Brexit is that the NHS, social care, regional development and a host of other national priorities will get neglected for years as ministers and parliament won’t have the bandwidth to focus on anything else. Insofar as the government does produce policies in these areas, there’s a risk that it will botch the job because of inadequate attention to detail – as it did with its manifesto-busting attempt to increase national insurance contributions for the self-employed during the Budget.

It’s not just that Brexit will dominate British politics during the two-year Article 50 divorce process, which Theresa May plans to kick off later this month. For years afterwards, the government will be consumed with negotiating a new trade deal with the EU, cutting new trade deals with the rest of the world in part to replace the ones that will lapse when we quit the bloc, and deciding which bits of European regulation we want to keep and which we want to modify.
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Nick
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Re: In or out?

#1408 Postby Nick » March 21st, 2017, 8:46 am

Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:No, Nick. I did not say that.
Huh? :shock: You implied there are no customs between Dover and Calais!! :rolleyes:
No, Nick. No I didn't.
Well, what did you imply, then?


But what about Ireland, Nick?
That all depends on Brussels, doesn't it? They blew it when they had the chance.
What about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, Nick? What will be required there?
Based on your apparent logic, not customs posts, obviously!

We don't know what stupidity the EU will insist on, do we?

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1409 Postby Alan H » March 21st, 2017, 10:42 am

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:Huh? :shock: You implied there are no customs between Dover and Calais!! :rolleyes:
No, Nick. No I didn't.
Well, what did you imply, then?
Good grief. Yes, we have customs points at Dover, but they don't currently process goods coming from other parts of the EU. After Brexit, all goods coming from the EU will need to be checked and appropriate tariffs paid - that will certainly take more capacity than currently available.

That all depends on Brussels, doesn't it? They blew it when they had the chance.
What about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, Nick? What will be required there?
Based on your apparent logic, not customs posts, obviously!
Good grief again, Nick.

We don't know what stupidity the EU will insist on, do we?
Stupidity of the EU? How about the WTO tariffs of 30% to 40% on meat and dairy produce that might be necessary?

But let's get back to the bigger difficulty for the Tory Government and its three stooges Brexiteers: take the case of a farmer in NI who currently exports meat products to Ireland. Currently, because we're all part of the EU single market and customs union, this is tariff-free and paperwork-free. What will his/her position be after Brexit? How will both Governments ensure proper tariffs are paid?
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Nick
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Re: In or out?

#1410 Postby Nick » March 21st, 2017, 11:04 am

Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:No, Nick. No I didn't.
Well, what did you imply, then?
Good grief. Yes, we have customs points at Dover, but they don't currently process goods coming from other parts of the EU. After Brexit, all goods coming from the EU will need to be checked and appropriate tariffs paid - that will certainly take more capacity than currently available.
Heavens! It takes a lot to get you to cough up your point! :laughter:

Whether or not we insist on "processing" goods from the EU will be up to us, won't it? If we choose to accept goods from the EU, then fine, why not? Just as we do from Switzerland and Norway. We manage it with other countries through TIR. As for tariffs, it is the EU which is threatening tariffs, just to frighten us, not the UK, the pioneers of free trade (though we've had our bad times too).

{...}

We don't know what stupidity the EU will insist on, do we?
Stupidity of the EU? How about the WTO tariffs of 30% to 40% on meat and dairy produce that might be necessary?[/quote]Why would they be "necessary", Alan? The UK would be happy to continue tariff-free trade with the EU. The EU is notorious for forcing up the price of meat and dairy products under CAP and imposing outrageous, job-destroying tariffs on emerging markets , 77% on cane sugar, for example, 25% (IIRC) on processed coffee, and many many others. If they want to impose them on our exports, it just shows how nasty and vindictive the EU is. And you want to support such an organisation?

But let's get back to the bigger difficulty for the Tory Government and its three stooges Brexiteers: take the case of a farmer in NI who currently exports meat products to Ireland. Currently, because we're all part of the EU single market and customs union, this is tariff-free and paperwork-free. What will his/her position be after Brexit? How will both Governments ensure proper tariffs are paid?
The export of meat is "paperwork-free"? :laughter: It may not be on paper, but the admin goes down to individual cows! Glad you like free-trade in Ireland, Alan. What a pity the EU doesn't. But the Irish have a way of finding solutions; I don't see why they won't again. Their biggest problem is the EU stopping them.

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1411 Postby Alan H » March 21st, 2017, 11:14 am

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:
Nick wrote:Well, what did you imply, then?
Good grief. Yes, we have customs points at Dover, but they don't currently process goods coming from other parts of the EU. After Brexit, all goods coming from the EU will need to be checked and appropriate tariffs paid - that will certainly take more capacity than currently available.
Heavens! It takes a lot to get you to cough up your point! :laughter:
My point about increased customs work was entirely obvious and shouldn't have required any further explanation or simplification.

Whether or not we insist on "processing" goods from the EU will be up to us, won't it? If we choose to accept goods from the EU, then fine, why not? Just as we do from Switzerland and Norway. We manage it with other countries through TIR. As for tariffs, it is the EU which is threatening tariffs, just to frighten us, not the UK, the pioneers of free trade (though we've had our bad times too).

{...}

We don't know what stupidity the EU will insist on, do we?
Stupidity of the EU? How about the WTO tariffs of 30% to 40% on meat and dairy produce that might be necessary?
Why would they be "necessary", Alan? The UK would be happy to continue tariff-free trade with the EU. The EU is notorious for forcing up the price of meat and dairy products under CAP and imposing outrageous, job-destroying tariffs on emerging markets , 77% on cane sugar, for example, 25% (IIRC) on processed coffee, and many many others. If they want to impose them on our exports, it just shows how nasty and vindictive the EU is. And you want to support such an organisation?


But let's get back to the bigger difficulty for the Tory Government and its three stooges Brexiteers: take the case of a farmer in NI who currently exports meat products to Ireland. Currently, because we're all part of the EU single market and customs union, this is tariff-free and paperwork-free. What will his/her position be after Brexit? How will both Governments ensure proper tariffs are paid?
The export of meat is "paperwork-free"? :laughter: It may not be on paper, but the admin goes down to individual cows! Glad you like free-trade in Ireland, Alan. What a pity the EU doesn't. But the Irish have a way of finding solutions; I don't see why they won't again. Their biggest problem is the EU stopping them.
The tracking of individual animals provides many traceability benefits, including those related to animal and human health, but perhaps you can get round to answering the question I asked?
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1412 Postby Alan H » March 21st, 2017, 1:11 pm

Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1413 Postby Alan H » March 21st, 2017, 2:22 pm

Fresh polling shows Britain doesn't want a hard Brexit
"GQRR polling published today shows that despite the referendum result Britain clearly prefers a Brexit deal that keeps us in the single market even with continued free movement of people"
Isn't that something akin to continuing to be a member of the EU?
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Nick
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Re: In or out?

#1414 Postby Nick » March 21st, 2017, 3:18 pm

Alan H wrote:This is a Google Earth view of one customs post on the Finland-Russia border. Will these need to be built on the NI-Ireland border or Dover-Calais after Brexit?

2017-03-18_16h41_29.png


What needs to be built more urgently than that is the major truck park to cope with regular and repeated strikes and other disruptions by French dock workers, so that the people of Kent can use the M20 again to go about their lawful business.

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1415 Postby Alan H » March 21st, 2017, 3:27 pm

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:This is a Google Earth view of one customs post on the Finland-Russia border. Will these need to be built on the NI-Ireland border or Dover-Calais after Brexit?

2017-03-18_16h41_29.png


What needs to be built more urgently than that is the major truck park to cope with regular and repeated strikes and other disruptions by French dock workers, so that the people of Kent can use the M20 again to go about their lawful business.
:laughter:
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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Nick
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Re: In or out?

#1416 Postby Nick » March 21st, 2017, 5:44 pm

Alan H wrote:Fresh polling shows Britain doesn't want a hard Brexit
"GQRR polling published today shows that despite the referendum result Britain clearly prefers a Brexit deal that keeps us in the single market even with continued free movement of people"
Isn't that something akin to continuing to be a member of the EU?


OTOH fresh polling shows Britain does want a Brexit Tory government, by a huge margin. :wink:

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#1417 Postby animist » March 22nd, 2017, 8:08 pm

Nick wrote:
Alan H wrote:Fresh polling shows Britain doesn't want a hard Brexit
"GQRR polling published today shows that despite the referendum result Britain clearly prefers a Brexit deal that keeps us in the single market even with continued free movement of people"
Isn't that something akin to continuing to be a member of the EU?


OTOH fresh polling shows Britain does want a Brexit Tory government, by a huge margin. :wink:
OTOH, so what? But there will need to be lots more opinion polls which show antagonism towards Hard Brexit for the Government to even begin considering altering its pose. Much too early to say how the negotiations, which will not become substantive until the French and German elections are out of the way, may alter the present state of voter lethargy

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Nick
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Re: In or out?

#1418 Postby Nick » March 22nd, 2017, 9:06 pm

animist wrote:...there will need to be lots more opinion polls which show antagonism towards Hard Brexit for the Government to even begin considering altering its pose.


Hmmm... Please explain how Britain can achieve a "soft Brexit" if Brussels refuses to allow it? ISTM this goes to the heart of things. The EU's "My way or the highway" doesn't leave many options.

Much too early to say how the negotiations, which will not become substantive until the French and German elections are out of the way, may alter the present state of voter lethargy
Could go either way....

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1419 Postby Alan H » Yesterday, 12:56 am

UK must retain link with European Court of Justice, say MPs
The UK must retain residual links with the European Union’s highest court after Brexit in order to protect the interests of British business, a Conservative-dominated select committee has urged.

The defiant plea for the government to recognise that the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in Luxembourg has a continuing, positive role to play – and that it is a “price worth paying” – is at odds with Theresa May’s uncompromising vow to extract Britain entirely from its jurisdiction.

In her landmark speech on 18 January, setting out her Brexit strategy, the prime minister declared that staying in the single market “would mean accepting a role for the European Court of Justice that would see it still having direct legal authority in our country.”

That, May said, “would to all intents and purposes mean not leaving the EU at all”.

But the report by the justice select committee, published on Wednesday, suggests that cutting all connections to Luxembourg would be damaging to UK interests.
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon

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animist
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Re: In or out?

#1420 Postby animist » Yesterday, 10:36 am

Nick wrote:
animist wrote:...there will need to be lots more opinion polls which show antagonism towards Hard Brexit for the Government to even begin considering altering its pose.


Hmmm... Please explain how Britain can achieve a "soft Brexit" if Brussels refuses to allow it? ISTM this goes to the heart of things. The EU's "My way or the highway" doesn't leave many options.

that is a strange question. Unless I have missed a lot of Brexit thinking by the May Queen, I think that she simply opted for Hard Brexit outside the Single Market. As I have said to you before, Soft Brexit would mean leaving the EU as such and adopting some relationship with it akin to Norway's, and the lying Brexit bastards actually used Norway and other countries as examples of how we could vote Leave and maintain a real relationship with this Market. So I am surprised that you ask the question you have done: as Britain did not opt to negotiate for Soft Brexit I don't see how you can accuse Brussels of disallowing it

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Alan H
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Re: In or out?

#1421 Postby Alan H » Yesterday, 11:19 am

animist wrote:
Nick wrote:
animist wrote:...there will need to be lots more opinion polls which show antagonism towards Hard Brexit for the Government to even begin considering altering its pose.


Hmmm... Please explain how Britain can achieve a "soft Brexit" if Brussels refuses to allow it? ISTM this goes to the heart of things. The EU's "My way or the highway" doesn't leave many options.

that is a strange question. Unless I have missed a lot of Brexit thinking by the May Queen, I think that she simply opted for Hard Brexit outside the Single Market. As I have said to you before, Soft Brexit would mean leaving the EU as such and adopting some relationship with it akin to Norway's, and the lying Brexit bastards actually used Norway and other countries as examples of how we could vote Leave and maintain a real relationship with this Market. So I am surprised that you ask the question you have done: as Britain did not opt to negotiate for Soft Brexit I don't see how you can accuse Brussels of disallowing it
It does seem to pose a serious question to the Brexiters: has it been known all along that the only Brexit had to be a hard Brexit (in which case, why were leading Brexiters all saying so many different things about staying in the SM, staying in the CU, joining the EEA, joining EFTA, etc, etc, ad nauseam) or has May adopted her hard Brexit stance because of what a few EU officials have said in interviews, etc recently (in which case she has given up on any attempt at negotiating even before any negotiating has actually begun and before we've even handed in our notice). Or is there another reason she is choosing a hard Brexit?
Alan Henness

"We're all in this together, but some are more in it than others."
— Me, with apologies to Napoleon


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