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Joined: May 17th, 2010, 9:15 pm
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Forced adultery and again. The fact that the rapist is serving a 7 year jail sentence for the attack does not, in my mind, excuse the treatment of the victim.

I defended the right of complaint (not of murder!) of those Muslims offended by the publishing of the cartoons of Muhammed, I still think that was an unnecessary expression of "freedom" that was malicious in its intent, not aimed at achieving any goal other than the starting of controversy and exposing the target for what the publishers thought them to be. In which they achieved their aims admirably.

But I often find myself in a dilemma, I believe we should respect the freedom of others to believe in whatever they wish and act in any way that does not damage another person. But then I see something like that above and any respect that I might feel for the Islamic law/social values/belief or in the mindset of those people who accept those things goes straight out of the window - never to return.

That a woman who is raped can even be charged with adultery, forced or otherwise, is in no way a human (not "humanist", simply "human") mode of thought. That does leave it open for those people to claim I am correct, because it is their god's law and gods are not human. But that still leaves it an inhumane act.

Now she may be forced to marry her rapist to "legitimise" the child. I suspect that we might all agree that it does not take marriage or any kind of law to "legitimise" a human life, the mere existence of that life gives it the same fundamental value as every other human life.

I do not know why so many people from Muslim countries seem to have such a low level of respect for humanity, have beliefs or mindsets that enable them to have no compunction about killing tens or thousands of people, indiscriminately at times, or to consider that a if another does not believe in exactly the same things as them then that person has no right to live. I accept that fighting, and killing, other people in "legitimate" wars is necessary. Should another nation attempt to overtake this country and impose their will on its people by force I would be amongst the first to ask for a rifle. Therefore I have to accept the right of a Muslim to defend his country and values in the same way - in a declared war with defined "sides".

But this one action against a young woman seems to have put the penultimate nail in the coffin of respect for Islam as it is interpreted and practised in most Islamic countries. I find it hard to drive in the final nail because I recognise that, despite the dichotomies about whether or not god exists and the origin of morality, Humanism shares some basic tenets with the major religions.

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January 15th, 2012, 11:44 am
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Dave B wrote:
That a woman who is raped can even be charged with adultery, forced or otherwise, is in no way a human (not "humanist", simply "human") mode of thought. That does leave it open for those people to claim I am correct, because it is their god's law and gods are not human. But that still leaves it an inhumane act.
Ah, yes, it would be seen as an inhumane act IF the attitude towards women was that she was valuable as more than a commodity. Sadly, this is not the case. Women have suffered everywhere in the world for the acts of violence perpetrated against her. It's only that women in more developed countries often have a bigger voice and therefore, rights and only in the distant past has this happened.

Dave B wrote:
Now she may be forced to marry her rapist to "legitimise" the child. I suspect that we might all agree that it does not take marriage or any kind of law to "legitimise" a human life, the mere existence of that life gives it the same fundamental value as every other human life.
I wish it were true that mere existence of a life meant that everyone was seen as having the same fundamental value. Sadly again, that is not the case. Otherwise, I doubt there'd be such a thing as designer babies, nor would there be stigma as there used to be and still is in some places for women who give birth to babies without being married even when not raped. I have experienced discrimination because some people think my son should be institutionalized. Like hell I'm gonna let that happen. But I digress...

Dave B wrote:
I do not know why so many people from Muslim countries seem to have such a low level of respect for humanity, have beliefs or mindsets that enable them to have no compunction about killing tens or thousands of people, indiscriminately at times, or to consider that a if another does not believe in exactly the same things as them then that person has no right to live. I accept that fighting, and killing, other people in "legitimate" wars is necessary. Should another nation attempt to overtake this country and impose their will on its people by force I would be amongst the first to ask for a rifle. Therefore I have to accept the right of a Muslim to defend his country and values in the same way - in a declared war with defined "sides".

Did you know that in the Bible, it states that women who have been raped must marry their rapists? I think it's in Deuteronomy. The attitude that women are less than is not just in Muslim circles but we certainly hear more about it in countries where shariah law is prevalent.
Also, the US has been guilty of killing innocent people in wars that were supposed to be with defined sides. Look at My Lai, for example. Or Japan against the Chinese. Then there is always the Nazis. Is it the Muslim religion or all major religions that have guilty stamped on their collective foreheads?


Dave B wrote:
But this one action against a young woman seems to have put the penultimate nail in the coffin of respect for Islam as it is interpreted and practised in most Islamic countries. I find it hard to drive in the final nail because I recognise that, despite the dichotomies about whether or not god exists and the origin of morality, Humanism shares some basic tenets with the major religions.

As you can see, I don't have any problem with driving the final nail into all religions or at least the people who propagate the idea that women are less than with their religious beliefs.

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January 16th, 2012, 3:39 am
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Thanks for reminding me that there is a broader picture to this kind of injustice, Marian, and, yes, war always brutalises even when it might be considered the lesser of two evils.

I was so wound up about the injustice of the rape being judged "forced adultery". In some ways this was an injustice far worse than the practice of seeing women as second class humans, it made being a victim of an actual crime, in any civilised society, a crime in itself.

There does seem to be a split in Islam forming where personal rights are concerned. A split between the "modern" governments where they are now, at least, awarding prison sentences for the perpetrators of these crimes against women and the Taliban and other fundamentalists who wish to maintain the old ways. Perhaps it is pressure put on western governments by civil rights and women's groups that cause them to "advise" Afghanistan and similar nations that modernisations in the law, closer to the western model, is a requirement to future trading and other assistance. In the end it comes down to politics.

But if those tactics work more strength to them!

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January 16th, 2012, 12:24 pm
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