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 Osama Bin Laden 
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Joined: November 20th, 2008, 6:40 pm
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How would she have got into the hands of the Pakistani authorities? The US were saying they didn't inform them untill they (the US) were clear of Pakistani air space ( though I suppose the presence of the blackhawks would have been loticed by the locals!). Did they just leave her lying, to be found?

I don't suppose we will ever know the whole truth (though that won't stop hollywood)

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May 5th, 2011, 10:17 pm
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I am guessing that the Yanks got their man, grabbed as much evidence as they could and then got out before the locals could scramble either fighters or troops - from a whole km away.

In such circumstances "collateral" wounded would have zero priority. I would guess that the Pakistani police or troops got there fairly soon after they Yanks left. But . . .

The Americans were there for 40 minutes with fighting going on all the time and a chopper being blown up. Did the local police/troops hear nothing then?

As you say, getreal, we will never know the truth. There is a lot of political posturing going on and that usually means, "We are covering our arses!"

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May 5th, 2011, 10:34 pm
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Dave B wrote:
I am guessing that the Yanks got their man, grabbed as much evidence as they could and then got out before the locals could scramble either fighters or troops - from a whole km away.

In such circumstances "collateral" wounded would have zero priority. I would guess that the Pakistani police or troops got there fairly soon after they Yanks left. But . . .

The Americans were there for 40 minutes with fighting going on all the time and a chopper being blown up. Did the local police/troops hear nothing then?

As you say, getreal, we will never know the truth. There is a lot of political posturing going on and that usually means, "We are covering our arses!"
Although the person didn't know what was going on at the time, the raid was Tweeted live by someone not very far away from the compound.

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May 5th, 2011, 10:41 pm
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Hmm, since they knew it would be close and confined combat, and they did not want the local authorities getting involved, the Yanks would probably have had well silenced weapons and avoided using grenades. Should have thought of that before.

With those thick walls the sound may not have got far, even if the residents started to shoot back (seems that they were caught on the hop though.) But I still feel something does not gel here, you can't silence choppers, did not they alert someone in authority? 40 minutes is a long time.

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May 5th, 2011, 10:53 pm
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Dave B wrote:
But I still feel something does not gel here, you can't silence choppers, did not they alert someone in authority? 40 minutes is a long time.
Particularly since there was a Pakistani military base 1 km away!

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May 5th, 2011, 11:20 pm
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From Twitter:
Quote:
DNA of Bin Laden has come back: 24% cocoa, 52% coconut, 18% sugar & 6% milk. Experts say this is probably due to the bounty on his head.






Yeah, I know :offtopic:

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May 6th, 2011, 12:18 am
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:laughter:

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May 6th, 2011, 9:46 am
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Alan H wrote:
Dave B wrote:
But I still feel something does not gel here, you can't silence choppers, did not they alert someone in authority? 40 minutes is a long time.
Particularly since there was a Pakistani military base 1 km away!

Not saying that this is the situation in Pakistan but . . . Where there are separate and, possibly, competing official agencies it is sometimes the case that one does not inform the others about their movements and actions and serious errors happen. The multitudinous American security agencies have certainly suffered from this problem. Even undercover civilian police operations so suffer. From what we have heard about them the ISI and the army in Pakistan may be no different !

Thus each group, on hearing choppers say, may think, "Those other buggers are up to their bloody games again." Especially in a country in the state of almost constant military/security alert and action that Pakistan must be.

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May 6th, 2011, 10:21 am
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Sarah Palin has said that the photo of bin Laden should be published.

If Palin was president she would probably have had his skin nailed to the White House door, or his head mounted in the Oval Office.

There are two images on the web that purport to be of bin Laden's body but they are quite different.

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May 7th, 2011, 10:04 am
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yesterday, in Pakistan, a suicide bomber killed over 80 people in a bombing which the perpetrators claimed to be revenge for Bin Laden's killing. Maybe these deaths would have happened anyway, but I am rethinking my comments about the Bin Laden operation - less about its lawfulness than its effects. Dave B was probably right about combating insanity, and I trust he is OK


May 13th, 2011, 2:00 pm
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I don't think any of us will ever really know what was wise to do in this situation. I would have preferred to see the man brought to court. Although I'm not sure what that would have done with the safety of many people, since a martyr in detention is more dangerous than a dead martyr, probably.

Although I despise the way al Qaeda operates, you have to remember that they consider themselves to be freedom fighters. After so many years of American and European repression in both financial and cultural terms (slavery, evangalism, capitalism), you'd expect someone to respond.

I worry about the way "the war on terror" is handled, because people who are fighting for the cause and are very willing to die for that, won't be deterred by the fear of death (as western people usually are). Killing one of their more prominent leaders probably doesn't make them any less agressive. Anyone any thoughts on how to handle a group that find honor in death?


May 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm
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I am with you in terms of the fact that many of the Muslim nations have suffered from imperialism, in one form or another, Kes (and welcome to the forum BTW) but is anybody justified in the, effective, declaration that any member of those erring nations is fair game?

War is not a civilised activity in any form and the fact that modern war-think demands that all possible steps be taken to reduce "civilian" deaths is not an excuse, though it does appear to indicate at least a nod to civilised ethics and morals. But even accepting that people die in either case, how does this compare with (in our terms) the practice of ignoring the possibility of killing even children of your own "group" in order to strike at your enemies? bin Laden effectively said that all westerners were fair game, as I said above.

I still feel that it is almost impossible to think in the same way as a devout, let alone a fundamentalist, Muslim, one has to literally live the belief in order to understand it.

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May 18th, 2011, 2:06 pm
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I agree Dave, that everyone being fair game, is in no way understandable. I wonder if the inflexibility in thinking in fundamentalist groups makes them see everything in black and white and if bringing any kind of nuance in this situation will ever be possible.


May 18th, 2011, 2:18 pm
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KES2807 wrote:
I agree Dave, that everyone being fair game, is in no way understandable. I wonder if the inflexibility in thinking in fundamentalist groups makes them see everything in black and white and if bringing any kind of nuance in this situation will ever be possible.
There are reflections in the west. I once knew of some-one who was on the Channel Islands during the war and who was of the opinion that, even in old age, "That the only good German is a dead one."

For some memories survive in an almost living form for a long time. In the case of some national or religious groups that can be centuries and be perpetuated from generation to generation.

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May 18th, 2011, 3:19 pm
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