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Hoarders:private or public issue?

Enter here to explore ethical issues and discuss the meaning and source of morality.
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Marian
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Hoarders:private or public issue?

#1 Post by Marian » September 26th, 2010, 3:47 pm

1700 people are homeless after a massive fire was started in a downtown apt building on Friday. No official word has been given regarding the start of this fire but apparantly, it got started inside one unit of the building on the 24th floor which was jam-packed with various items.
The city has the right to enforce clean-up of any property which is an eyesore or deemed a public safety hazard as per a municipal by-law. Work orders are issued to have the 'offender' clean up; if the order is ignored, city workers can go in and get rid of the stuff at tax-payers expense.

Do you think the city has the right to interfere in how someone keeps their place? Should it depend on socioeconomic status?
Should hoarders be evicted?


Here's the article that started it:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article ... f-hoarding
Transformative fire...

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Alan C.
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#2 Post by Alan C. » September 26th, 2010, 4:37 pm

At our last house the guy at the end of the road (9 doors away) let his garden get into an awful state with accumulated junk, as it was attracting rats he was told by the council to clear it up but refused, upshot was, the council sent three men and a pick-up truck to clear it, he was then billed for the work. So the only tax payer that was out of pocket was himself.
When he died (he lived alone) it turned out the inside of the house was also crammed with junk and he had been living in one small room.
Do you think the city has the right to interfere in how someone keeps their place?
I do if it's a fire hazard and especially in an apartment block where other folks are in danger.
Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers.

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Dave B
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#3 Post by Dave B » September 26th, 2010, 4:56 pm

We also have a "recluse" not far away who has turned his house into a fortress using old cars and other junk. As with Alan's example rats are a real hazard - and it does not help that this house is next door to a large Indian restaurant. I have noticed that the overgrown bushes around this property have now been severely cut back, we hope this means that some sort of clean-up is in progress.

If any property is causing a hazard, of any kind, to its neighbours I do believe that the authorities should have the power to rectify the situation.

I did not agree with the TV people making a "documentary" series out of such clean-ups for entertainment purposes, which they did some time ago. I think it was called "Grimebusters".

I do know of itinerants who would rather live rough than in a hostel and consider that is their right, providing they do not indulge in any activity that causes problems for the rest of society.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Fia
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#4 Post by Fia » September 26th, 2010, 9:06 pm

Do you think the city has the right to interfere in how someone keeps their place?
When it impinges on others safety, yes.
Should it depend on socioeconomic status?
Only to the extent that richer folk have more space to hoard and fewer neighbours to inconvenience or more...
Should hoarders be evicted?
No, they should be helped.

Many folk have a hoarding element. There's always the "it might be useful", which is an admirable green approach, and "I haven't got round to sorting that yet". I moved my ex-partners 5 bin bags of old newspapers 5 times. Each time I asked why. Because he hadn't cut out the articles he wanted from them. He's just lazy. Those who hoard obsessively need help, ongoing and probably long term. It's probably cheaper to just clear up than address the issue...

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Dave B
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#5 Post by Dave B » September 26th, 2010, 10:15 pm

There's always the "it might be useful"
Guilty!

My restriction is that I only have the attic to store stuff and the rafters will only take so much strain!

I agree about helping, where this is possible. I moved into a basement bed-sitter in Cheltenham in my last year in the RAF. In the next bed-sit was a chap who was obsessive about not returning milk bottles or throwing papers away (no organised recycling in 1970). It reached the point where he was in danger of being smothered by the bottles and paper stacked to the ceiling, leaving only enough space for him to sit just inside the door.

The landlord tried to evict him but he got support from the local authority (they would have had to rehouse him and did not want the hassle). In the end the landlord had to force them into action by threatening to close the whole house because it was a fire hazard. The chap was sectioned in the end.

In Gloucester we have a book-obsessive. He takes as many of the books out of the skip behind the Oxfam shop as he can manage during the day, on his bike, three carrier bags full on each side of the handle-bars every trip. He never washes because he could not get into his house since every room is stuffed with books - as were four garages that he rented when I worked in the shop. The main problem he causes is that when he goes into the shop most of customers leave since he stinks so badly. We had to persuade him to leave by allowing him a big discount on the book he wants if he leaves immediately!

But he is basically harmless, just very sad. He came from a good family, was well educated and was worth a small fortune but is only allowed a smallish monthly stipend from his inheritance - his parents new he would squander the money. He refused to go into hospital in case he caught MRSA, but every now and again the Red Cross persuaded him to allow them to give him a good clean up and a medical check.

However, some kids set fire to one of his garages and his neighbours are concerned that his house is a fire trap. He cooks on a camping stove just inside the front door.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Marian
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#6 Post by Marian » September 27th, 2010, 1:54 am

I noticed that if the accumulation of stuff was a hazard then most we willing to have the authorities in to clean up. Does this apply to the inside of someone's private property ie. their house. ? What if it is a hazard only to the person living there?

Part of my point is that those living in apt buildings live in closer quarters than the hoarder who lives alone on his own property but the apt dweller is more likely to be harangued about how he lives. Shouldn't the property owner, who is a hazard to himself, also face repercussions from the authorities?

Yes, lots of people collect stuff and have trouble cleaning clutter but the hoarders have a mental health issue under the obsessive-compulsive umbrella. Wouldn't it be better to treat the whole issue rather than just clean up only to have the same issue a year later? I've known only a couple of actual hoarders. Neither enjoyed how they 'lived'. They were appreciative of any help to clean up.

We've got a similar television show here called Hoarders. I've watched the show once or twice and once you've seen one hoarder, they are all pretty much the same although what they collect is different. The only thing I liked about the program was the support that the hoarders were getting from family members but really the show is just another form of schaedenfreude.
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Gurdur
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#7 Post by Gurdur » September 27th, 2010, 4:16 am

Marian wrote: ... but the hoarders have a mental health issue under the obsessive-compulsive umbrella. Wouldn't it be better to treat the whole issue rather than just clean up only to have the same issue a year later? ....
Bingo. Yes.

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Dave B
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#8 Post by Dave B » September 27th, 2010, 9:26 am

Mariam, I think the distinction between the hoarder living in multiple occupancy accommodation and those living in a single occupier house, even if part of a terrace, is a sharp one.

The other occupants of a block of flats would be in far greater danger from any hazard than the neighbour with a fire wall between him and the hazard. Is it really a matter of social class? I wonder what would happen if a person living in a block of posh flats were also to be a hoarder of dangerous materials? I suppose the chances are that in the posh apartments there would be a lease with very strict rules regarding the use of the property. But even then it may be that it would take legal action, possibly over months, to actually get the person out - whilst the hazard continues.

In such circumstances I believe that the authorities have a duty to intervene quickly if there is an actual hazard, but this should be regardless of social class. A perceived hazard is a matter for proper investigation and judgement.

In Grimebusters the two programmes that I saw involved one rented council house and one private dwelling. In the first the landlord, the local authority, had the right to protect their property.

The matter of "treatment" of the hoarder is part of a much larger picture of the lack of such care for a large number of people. There are not the funds or resources to go round and improving the situation means higher taxes. Even if the voluntary sector takes up some of the work much of their funding and the cost of alternative accommodation comes out of the public purse, the volunteers mainly supply the labour and save a few salaries.
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jaywhat
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#9 Post by jaywhat » September 27th, 2010, 10:11 am

Dave B wrote:I did not agree with the TV people making a "documentary" series out of such clean-ups for entertainment purposes, which they did some time ago. I think it was called "Grimebusters".
I used to watch 'Grimebusters' and do not quite see it as 'entertainment' except in the broadest sense. It told one a bit about how others live and about those whose job involves cleaning it up. But I agree that I do not appreciate all the opinions voiced on other people's standards.

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Dave B
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#10 Post by Dave B » September 27th, 2010, 11:39 am

jaywhat wrote:
Dave B wrote:I did not agree with the TV people making a "documentary" series out of such clean-ups for entertainment purposes, which they did some time ago. I think it was called "Grimebusters".
I used to watch 'Grimebusters' and do not quite see it as 'entertainment' except in the broadest sense. It told one a bit about how others live and about those whose job involves cleaning it up. But I agree that I do not appreciate all the opinions voiced on other people's standards.
Hmmm. There seems to be a thin line between "documentary" and "entertainment" in this sort of thing, Jaywhat. It can be a kind of schadenfreude, a joy of seeing others in difficult positions. It gives some a feeling of superiority maybe.

Slightly off this topic, those programmes about catching cowboy builders etc., notice the presentation style, the theatricality, the jokes, the glee etc. That's entertainment, even if it serves a purpose. Grimebusters comes very close to this in my perception.
"Look forward; yesterday was a lesson, if you did not learn from it you wasted it."
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Marian
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#11 Post by Marian » September 27th, 2010, 5:54 pm

I agree that safety is paramount; socioeconomic status shouldn't matter but in practice it does. A renter, posh or not, is subject to the lease agreement which stipulates how the dwelling should be kept. Fair enough but why should someone who owns their property be able to keep it in a dangerous condition just because it's private? Is there a law about private home ownership that states you have to keep it 'unhoarded'? (is that even a word? :) ) I don't think so as long as it doesn't interfere with others.

My issue was just with the discrepancy between private and public property ownership and how the issue of hoarding would be dealt with. Over here, there is the idea that a 'man's home is his castle' and there shall be no interference in how said person runs this castle. (I have issue with the idea that it's a man's home but that's another story) The people I knew who were hoarders all owned the houses they cluttered up. They just didn't invite anyone over but the renters have no choice but to let landlords in with notice.

What is a 'cowboy builder'?
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Dave B
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#12 Post by Dave B » September 27th, 2010, 6:17 pm

What is a 'cowboy builder'?
It's an expression used on this side of the pond for a builder who overcharges, does shoddy work, charges for the hours he spends on his mobile talking to other customers and down the betting shop etc. Not only builders, we have cowboy plumbers, electricians and so forth as well.

There seems to be no consensus of opinion as to how the term arose. One of my favourites is that many builders wore "cowboy" tartan shirts and jeans back in the 70s or 80s when the phrase started - no Stetsons that I have ever noticed though.

This from Wikipedia Reference Desk (actually a discussion area it seems): "In the US, at least, cowboys are associated with the Wild West, the American Frontier that was wild and lawless, as compared to the more established cities to the east. The archetypal cowboy is ill mannered and crude, prone to gambling and drinking, has little regard for the law, is hot tempered, and is likely to rush into things with little consideration. Even the cowboy lawmen, though generally regarded favorably, dispense frontier justice. Calling someone a "cowboy" (in the US) implies that they are reckless (e.g "cowboy diplomacy")."
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Fia
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#13 Post by Fia » September 27th, 2010, 8:12 pm

Is there a law about private home ownership that states you have to keep it 'unhoarded'? (is that even a word? :) ) I don't think so as long as it doesn't interfere with others.
(my bold)

That's the crux, isn't it? Living cheek by jowl, as opposed to isolation in one's own castle, is far more likely to endanger others. The poor sod in his castle is harming nobody but him/herself.
My issue was just with the discrepancy between private and public property ownership and how the issue of hoarding would be dealt with.
If a person has mental capacity (perfectly possible for most folk who suffer mental problems) and is putting no-one else in danger such a situation could only be addressed by the authorities if they asked for help. If you own your property you have the freedom to destroy it that renters don't have.

So all in all, I reckon that the hoarders in rented accommodation are probably more likely to access help for their mental difficulties than those in their castles. And it's the latter ones that should possibly concern us the most...

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Dave B
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#14 Post by Dave B » September 27th, 2010, 8:45 pm

Fia, does not voluntarily "accessing" help rely on a degree of insight? That the person requiring help must actually know that they have a problem, be willing to admit it and recognise that they need that assistance?

Is it not the case that the authorities can intervene in any case where a person is deemed to be a danger to themselves through self neglect, which is often a side issue to compulsive obsessives with hoarding habits from what I have seen. Whether or not the authorities want to intervene is a different matter.

The "non-intervention" policy does seem to be spreading, I heard yesterday that the policy of the Samaritans is now to not try to convince a potential suicide to change their mind, simply to talk to them.
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Val
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#15 Post by Val » September 27th, 2010, 9:09 pm

Where I use to live in Leeds one of my neighbours who was Asian has this on his van 'You have had the cowboys, now try the Indians.'

Fia
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#16 Post by Fia » September 27th, 2010, 9:12 pm

:pointlaugh:
Dave B wrote:Fia, does not voluntarily "accessing" help rely on a degree of insight? That the person requiring help must actually know that they have a problem, be willing to admit it and recognise that they need that assistance?.
Of course, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. When a situation arises as the OP article, the relevant agencies will be informed, make contact and try to help. That is not the case when a person lives in an environment that is hurting no-one but themselves.
Dave B wrote:Is it not the case that the authorities can intervene in any case where a person is deemed to be a danger to themselves through self neglect, which is often a side issue to compulsive obsessives with hoarding habits from what I have seen.
That's far more difficult. With no intervention required on other's safety issues, and the person cannot be persuaded to seek help, the only other option is sectioning. Which is a huge hammer to crack a very small nut.

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Alan C.
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#17 Post by Alan C. » September 27th, 2010, 9:20 pm

Which is a huge hammer to crack a very small nut.
:smile:
Love the pun Fia. (Intended or not)
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Gurdur
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#18 Post by Gurdur » September 28th, 2010, 4:00 am

Val wrote:Where I use to live in Leeds one of my neighbours who was Asian has this on his van 'You have had the cowboys, now try the Indians.'
I find this brilliantly funny, thanks, Val!

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Dave B
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#19 Post by Dave B » September 28th, 2010, 3:47 pm

Val wrote:Where I use to live in Leeds one of my neighbours who was Asian has this on his van 'You have had the cowboys, now try the Indians.'
I think I would hire them just out of appreciation for the joke! (If I needed work done of course.)
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Wilson
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Re: Hoarders:private or public issue?

#20 Post by Wilson » January 4th, 2011, 9:35 pm

Marian wrote:Yes, lots of people collect stuff and have trouble cleaning clutter but the hoarders have a mental health issue under the obsessive-compulsive umbrella. Wouldn't it be better to treat the whole issue rather than just clean up only to have the same issue a year later? I've known only a couple of actual hoarders. Neither enjoyed how they 'lived'. They were appreciative of any help to clean up.
You're right about the mental health bit. Unfortunately, there's no effective medical or psychiatric treatment, as far as I know. I know a woman with the disorder, and she functions well as a librarian, but had rooms stuffed to the gills with stuff, including old TV Guide magazines and the like, the extent of which she somehow kept from her live-in almost husband. And like most hoarders, far from being appreciative of help in cleaning up, she resisted every attempt by her boyfriend to get rid of any of it. She had to rent a couple of big storage lockers and the cost of doing so became prohibitive. It's a shame.

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