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 Halal food 
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Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 4:53 pm
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Are supermarket by law label their halal food so that the British people can have a choice? This is something I don't understand because of my English as a second language. Could someone keep the answer short.
Better still, should it be banned?


September 23rd, 2009, 11:32 am
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Food with the halal or kosher label are for choice so that Muslims and Jews can follow their religious laws. Banned? I think all this religious observance stuff is nonsense. Was that short enough?

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September 23rd, 2009, 1:50 pm
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Both halal and kosher methods of slaughter are against the law in the UK but the law is overlooked because it's a religious "requirement" It makes me fume :angry:

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September 23rd, 2009, 5:01 pm
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Alan C. wrote:
Both halal and kosher methods of slaughter are against the law in the UK but the law is overlooked because it's a religious "requirement" It makes me fume :angry:


They are specifically exempt from the law rather than the law being "overlooked".

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/briefings/snsc-01314.pdf


September 23rd, 2009, 5:46 pm
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Thought I had made a post on this thread, but I don't see it.

Kosher methods of slaughter are often more humane than what usually happens in slaughterhouses. That being so, wouldn't it be a bit unnecessary and rather Stalinist to ban halal and kosher labels? Surely a central tenet of humanism is freedom, and not banning things unless really necessay.


September 23rd, 2009, 6:07 pm
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Gurdur wrote:
Kosher methods of slaughter are often more humane than what usually happens in slaughterhouses.

I've wondered about this myself. A razor sharp knife to the carotid artery results in a fairly rapid loss of consciousness doesn't it? How does it compare with captive bolt or electric stunning? I've seen claims on both sides for greater humaneness, but I'm unable to decide myself.

As someone who has had occasion to kill a chicken or two I'm not particularly squeamish.


September 23rd, 2009, 6:28 pm
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Hundovir wrote:
I've wondered about this myself. A razor sharp knife to the carotid artery results in a fairly rapid loss of consciousness doesn't it?


Pretty much. Theoretically* one also gets a huge headache, but it lasts only a very short time. Loss of consciousness is very fast with a bleed-out.

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How does it compare with captive bolt or electric stunning? I've seen claims on both sides for greater humaneness, but I'm unable to decide myself.


It's not just the captive bolt etc; often the animals are simply whacked hard in the forehead with an iron bar to stun them before they are then slaughtered, and the animals are often scared in a large slaughterhouse intake too.

Quote:
As someone who has had occasion to kill a chicken or two I'm not particularly squeamish.


If it gets to your reminiscences of being a serial murderer, it's going to be incompatible with humanism. Just sayin'.

__________

* Theoretically, since no-one has ever come back to report on their experiences of having been guillotined or having a carotid sliced open.

Mind you, someone tried cutting my own throat and made an awful mess, leaving me with a funny story and a huge scar on my neck, but the idiot missed the carotid. Apparently not by much.


September 23rd, 2009, 6:36 pm
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Gurdur wrote:
It's not just the captive bolt etc; often the animals are simply whacked hard in the forehead with an iron bar to stun them before they are then slaughtered, and the animals are often scared in a large slaughterhouse intake too.

So I understand.
Gurdur wrote:
Quote:
As someone who has had occasion to kill a chicken or two I'm not particularly squeamish.

If it gets to your reminiscences of being a serial murderer, it's going to be incompatible with humanism. Just sayin'.

But it says at the top of the page:
Quote:
An independent forum for those interested in humanism, secularism and freethought.
If you have any enquiries, please contact Admin.

So I take it that being "interested in humanism" doesn't commit one to being a humanist? :wink:
Gurdur wrote:
Mind you, someone tried cutting my own throat and made an awful mess, leaving me with a funny story and a huge scar on my neck, but the idiot missed the carotid. Apparently not by much.


Ouch!

BTW, and off-topic: have you posted about your Stoicism anywhere here on TH? I'm still exploring it and would value some input. Wanna start a thread?


September 23rd, 2009, 6:44 pm
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To go back to coffee's original question.
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Are supermarket by law label their halal food so that the British people can have a choice?
I don't believe (I could be wrong) meat is labeled as halal or kosher, I do believe that halal meat is being served in schools, hospitals, and prisons without the knowledge of non Muslims simply because it's easier and cheaper to use the "one size fits all" model.

That to me is unacceptable.

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September 23rd, 2009, 7:45 pm
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Gurdur wrote:
Thought I had made a post on this thread, but I don't see it.

Kosher methods of slaughter are often more humane than what usually happens in slaughterhouses. That being so, wouldn't it be a bit unnecessary and rather Stalinist to ban halal and kosher labels? Surely a central tenet of humanism is freedom, and not banning things unless really necessay.

Not necessarily true. It depends on how the animal is restrained, whether it is hoisted, and whether shehita is performed quickly and skillfully. We can see from this article http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull that hoisting still happens. Slaughterhouses here in Ontario are licensed by the Ministry of Agriculture; they must use humane methods and be regularly inspected. http://ontariospca.ca/4-farmanimals-iss ... onal.shtml

I don't necessarily think we should ban these labels but I do think the whole notion of having to religiously slaughter one's food is over the top as a concept. You mean their god watches all these people every time they put something in their mouths; that guy's gotta find something better to do--like cure AIDS or feed the children. (just in case it isn't obvious, I don't believe in imaginary sky guys)

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September 24th, 2009, 2:55 am
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Thank you for all your views.


September 24th, 2009, 4:45 pm
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Hundovir wrote:
... BTW, and off-topic: have you posted about your Stoicism anywhere here on TH? I'm still exploring it and would value some input. Wanna start a thread?


In these sad days where the left self-destructs, where some vocal atheists destroy their own movement, where the general populace is told over and over again that freedom is something you buy rather than make, where for the so-called opposition the revolution is only a commercially-sold T-shirt away, I find Stoicism and parts of similar philosophies like Bushido rather damned important. And presenting the need for self-autonomy and self-authenticity that is not a bought simulcrum is damned important.

It's unlikely that I would make a thread here on it, though I might at some date. The associated, very varied and complex issues do come up from time to time in my blog.


September 24th, 2009, 6:29 pm
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Alan posted that he thought all meat served in hospitals was halal/kosher. I find this unlikely as it is generally more expensive than plain old slaughterhouse meat.*

sorry, I can neither 'quote' Alan or link to the ninternet as I am far from home, using a computer which appears to be donkey powered and sitting in semi darkness (I think the donkey's on a go slow). However, this remains my only link to the outside world and my culture shock appears to have reached new hights today.

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September 24th, 2009, 7:36 pm
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Quote:
getreal
Alan posted that he thought all meat served in hospitals was halal/kosher.

My bold.

Slight correction getreal, I said.
Quote:
I do believe that halal meat is being served in schools, hospitals, and prisons
:wink:
Quote:
sorry, I can neither 'quote' Alan or link to the ninternet as I am far from home, using a computer which appears to be donkey powered and sitting in semi darkness (I think the donkey's on a go slow). However, this remains my only link to the outside world and my culture shock appears to have reached new hights today.

Sounds like you're in pergatotry!
:shock:
On reflection.........I'm not so sure about hospitals but I have read quite a few articles that claim this is the case in schools and prisons. (because in some schools and a lot of prisons, the Muslims are in the majority.

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September 24th, 2009, 7:58 pm
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found this.
http://www.hmie.gov.uk/documents/public ... ft-09.html

Seems, in scotland at least halal is not that common. I had forgotten that if halal is not available, vegetairain food is acceptable-we had to offer both Jewish and Moslem patients a vegetairian option untill we could get halal/Kosher (which took longer to access).
I'm a bit perturbed at the inclusion of ;nutritionists' as 'health professionals' in this document. Strangely they mention dieticians too. Even if you accept that there is arole for nutricionists (I don't) why would you also mention dieticians? I think the scottish executive is clearly confused--and ill informed.

Thanks Alan. I'm visiting family and I find it extremely difficult to cope with their disregard of the welfare of (particularly) dogs. I'm in a really difficult situation and feel I can't remontrate with the elderly grandmother for throwing rocks at the dog my daughter is looking after for a friend.
I'm getting really stressed out at the number of scraggy, lame, pus sore ridden dogs who locals think are fare game for target practice. I don't even want to think about the poor dog tied up and howling next door.
and a load of other things (elderly people begging etc).
I haven't felt this sad for years.

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September 24th, 2009, 8:29 pm
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Quote:
Thanks Alan. I'm visiting family and I find it extremely difficult to cope with their disregard of the welfare of (particularly) dogs. I'm in a really difficult situation and feel I can't remontrate with the elderly grandmother for throwing rocks at the dog my daughter is looking after for a friend.
I'm getting really stressed out at the number of scraggy, lame, pus sore ridden dogs who locals think are fare game for target practice. I don't even want to think about the poor dog tied up and howling next door.
and a load of other things (elderly people begging etc).
I haven't felt this sad for years.

Christ getreal! Where exactly are you just now? If you've already said elsewhere on the forum I apologise (I must have missed it)

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September 24th, 2009, 8:58 pm
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This week's Newline has a report about some New Zealand research showing Jewish and Muslim methods to be more painful. It'd be interesting to read the original paper.

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October 16th, 2009, 11:25 pm
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More in this week's New Scientist: Animals feel the pain of religious slaughter - science-in-society - 13 October 2009 - New Scientist

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October 16th, 2009, 11:37 pm
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Thanks for the link, Hundovir. I think it makes it plain that Halal and Kosher is more painful for the animals concerned. I don't think the science is in doubt. I am not too exercised if the animals are pre-stunned, and think there are higher priorities in animal care, such as how they are transported and treated before they are stunned. It also seems clear that the religions are exempted, not that ritual slaughter is OK. It may well be, that in centuries past, these methods were the most humane available. But then again, in Nelson's navy, amputations were performed without anaesthetic. Should we use the same logic as the religious and continue the practice?

About the expense of halal and kosher. It may well be that it is more expensive to produce. However, it may be more expensive to produce both types of meat. Likewise, it may be more expensive for hospitals to serve halal food, but it would be vastly more expensive to run 2 separate kitchens. Overall profits may therefore be higher or overall costs lower, if ritual slaughter is used and not disclosed on packaging or menus. This presents a problem for the ethical carnivore but the government is unlikely to be swayed by conscientious meat-eaters rather than hysterical muslims and jews.


October 17th, 2009, 10:49 am
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http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/et ... -Slaughter


December 31st, 2009, 11:31 pm
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